is this the discard phase?

[Markclo1]

Hi, . My father is a narcissist, he has done many things over the years which have caused real division and pain in our family, he himself grew up in a very abusive household. My relationship with my dad has been rocky for a long time, as i began to stand up to him and call him out for his behavior's, it got worse. We have not gone no contact but our communication has been really poor for a few years. Around 6 months ago, my dad himself stopped communicating with me, wouldn't answer any messages etc, it was like i didn't exist, it happened very suddenly, he just cut me off. At this point, i still have no direct communication with him and this has severely impacted my relationship with my sister too as she just continues a normal relationship with him. I think this is his way of trying to control me and reel me back in but its not working. However, it is still incredibly painful, especially as my sister seems to think that this is my fault and wont support me at all, she even just went on vacation with my father and posted the photos all over social media. It all seems incredibly cruel. Any advice on how to deal with this type of situation?

[SonofThunder]

Hello Markclo1,

Im unable to say whether your experience is discard, but it surely can also be silence in manipulation, as bait to reel you back first into communication, which is a fuel/control/power victory for the PD. 

Going NC or VLC with a PD is a boundary for our own self protection, not punishment of the PD. Therefore, you may want to consider why you are monitoring your father's activities/posts as potential feedback directed at you. Full NC is also unfollowing/disconnecting in all areas so you do not receive feedback-coms of any kind, for your own self-protection.  If that needs to be your sister as well, then so be it, as he may use family members to manipulate you. 

For the PD, theres also silent treatment (ST), which is for punishment and baiting purposes, and also is a source of fuel for PD victimhood, which is the role-dance around the 🔺Karpman drama triangle. It is not really silent. 

Triangulation is also a trait (see below) to manipulate and punish the target, so it is a very handy side-kick to the ST's from a PD.  I dont personally label ST as discard because its easy to understand the focused intent of the PD is to inflict emotional discomfort as bait, using the noises and/or visibles of ST (stomping, mumbling, door slamming, purposefully doing something irritating like turning music up very loud to convey I cant be heard, etc, social media posts).

My experiences of discard are a deep seated disconnect that I don't matter at all, while they act perfectly normal in their home activities (not ST behaviors). In my discard experiences, it was as if I became invisible in presence to the PD, whom I lived with; like the PD was living alone, with me still in the house. I did not matter, and there was no baiting occurring; it was purely punishment, all by itself. 

Hope you figure out the answer to your question. Link to trait below regarding the potential use of your sister and social media as both punishment and bait for JADE.

SoT

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/triangulation-divide-conquer

[NarcKiddo]

It's hard to say exactly what it is, though discard is a distinct possibility.

The fact that your sister thinks it is your fault and is in close contact with your father would suggest she may be enmeshed with him, or may be a flying monkey, or both.

Narcs need supply. It sounds like you have stopped being a good source of supply for your father. Your relationship became more combative as you started calling him out. Narcs will often respond fiercely to this type of behaviour as you are coming out from under their control and they don't like that. They do often seem to enjoy the fight involved if you eventually capitulate because this bolsters their ego and sense of power and control. But if you don't capitulate they begin to see you are willing to enforce your boundaries. They don't like that because it is an obvious violation of their authority. So the next phase is often to discard. You are of no value to them if you will not bolster their ego, plus your ability to stand up for yourself and defy them is anathema.

In your case there has been a reduction of contact as well as your calling out of the narc. Reduced contact means reduced drama and reduced supply so you become increasingly boring to them. You are no longer a good and reliable source of supply so they find it elsewhere. Your sister is a ready source of supply in the case of your family.

My mother is a narc and my sister is a flying monkey. I have never called my mother out on her behaviour but I have introduced boundaries, enforced them and gone LC combined with strong grey rock. I think she has realised her power has waned and she rarely tries to exert direct pressure on me any more. She uses flying monkey sister to try to pressure me into things. But I won't back down and I think flying monkey sister is liking her role less and less because she obviously looks ineffectual to narc mother if she cannot get me to do what is wanted. My relationship with my sister is non-existent and there is no hope for it while she remains a flying monkey.

I fully understand how hurtful this type of behaviour is but in my experience there is absolutely nothing you can do to change it. All you can do is control how you react and respond. Don't expect anything other than bad and hurtful behaviour and protect yourself as necessary.

I wish you all the best.

[SonofThunder]

Hello again Markclo1,

Please disregard my comments about NC/Full NC in my previous reply. I clearly misread your post. Looking back on it again, it states "not gone".  My sincere apologies. 

SoT

[Srcyu]

You mention that communication was really poor between you and your dad for a few years. That could be why he decided to just not bother any more. Since he's never been a very good father it stands to reason that discarding you now (yes, it sounds like discard) would not bother him much.
He and your sister are basking in each other 'virtue' at still being able to have an apparently, good relationship. Sister can not afford to acknowledge any of father's fault in all of this because she now has a clear run to play Happy Families.
She has taken on the role of golden child by the sounds of it.

The best way to manage all of this it to gain as much understanding as you can as to what's on going in their heads.

[Markclo1]

Thanks for the replies. i know i need to move on with my life, i have a family of my own and geographically i don't live close to my father or sister anymore. One of the things my dad did some  years ago was have an affair with a woman we all knew, this led to the divorce of my parents, although he had been abusive years before that. Looking back, i think standing up to my father in this situation was the beginning of the end of my relationship with him, he hated me doing that. He tried to bully the entire family into accepting this woman. I don't understand my sisters actions at all, she just goes along with everything and plays happy families, she seems to be living completely in denial. My dads family has a long history of dysfunction and abuse, his own father was an alcoholic who was abusive. Despite all that, its still incredibly painful to have your father just cut you out of your life like you are worth nothing to him

[Leonor]

Hi Markclo,

I just wanted to support you in your feelings of sadness around your father's silence.

My mother discarded me 15 years ago, and I literally heard not one word from her since. Even as I know she is incapable of a loving relationship with me, it's a painful reality.

It may be too early to know whether your father is punishing you with a silent treatment as a way to bring you back in line or if he has erased you from his life (in my experience, disordered parents are more likely to try to reestablish control by reaching back out eventually).

But whatever happens, know that your feelings of grief and confusion are normal and you deserve much better.

[Markclo1]

Thanks Leonor, it is definitely so difficult. I think he will probably get in contact with me eventually, knowing him as i do, i do think this is his way of trying to reassert control over me. His hope is probably that this is going to be so painful for me, that i will just give up and come running back to him. This situation is making me question so many things, like why i would i even want a relationship with a man like this, and what do i want for my own children. Maybe its time for me to go completely no contact and establish my own boundaries.

[Hilltop]

It is extremely hurtful to not have the loving supportive relationship with a parent.  It is hurtful to watch that relationship seem to happen with a sibling but not with us. It is hard to know what is happening with your father.  When my mother has gone silent in the past it has been for varied reasons.  A friend was sick, she was sick, she was busy, there was drama elsewhere and she was caught up in that, as punishment, when she was doing a smear campaign on me, trying to bait me but one thing I picked up on along the way is that focusing on her didn't help me.  It is so hard to know what is going on with them.  Work out what boundaries you need in your life.  Boundaries that work for you.

Your sister may be going on holidays with your father and she may be blaming you solely for the breakdown in the relationship however it does sound like maybe she is perhaps enmeshed, unable to see the role she is playing as the GC or perhaps she is just as dysfunctional as your father.  It is ok for your sister to have her own relationship with her father.  It's ok for her to post holiday pictures on social media. The trouble with GC/SG roles is that it pits the siblings against each other and this type of dynamic is common.  It is so destructive.

There is so much hurt around these dynamics. Perhaps it may help to read up more on the dynamics to understand them more and see how they are playing out in your family.  It is hard to know if your father will reach out some time in the future or not.  That lack of caring cuts very deeply. In some ways understanding the dynamics helps but also doesn't help. We can understand but it doesn't take the pain away, healing takes time.  Perhaps use this quiet time, with no contact from him for yourself.

[lkdrymom]

Is it possible to keep your relationships with your sister and father completely separate?  No mention of your father when you talk to your sister, focus on just the two of you.

[Markclo1]

I find it very difficult to do that. i feel like has my sister has let me take the fall for the family's dysfunctional system. I would like to have a healthy relationship with my sister, and not really one where i have to avoid discussing these important issues because she might get upset or hurt feelings.
In my opinion, she just doesn't want to face the reality of who her father is and / or the dysfunctional state of the family. My family has got to the state its in now because of 2/3 generations of refusing to deal with our problems, the attitude has been lets just present a united front to the world, and in private we don't talk about our issues.
Although i understand this is hard for my sister and for everybody, she would prefer to continue pretending everything is perfectly fine when it clearly isn't, To me, she is living a lie. I don't know if that sounds harsh, but that's what i think

[moglow]

Marclo, fwiw, it became easier for me to have relationships with my brothers when I stepped away and outside mother and her garbage. They weren't necessarily in denial, but more of what they seemed to think I should do [even knowing how she'd always treated me]. I stopped discussing her and that seemed to take the pressure off. They can have whatever relationship they want with her, that's nothing to do with me other than her being the source of us all.

Once we build/rebuilt decent relationships -and she inevitably turned on them- things became very different. We've talked about and compared notes on many different levels and events over the years, and they see it. I think like me, they had to decide they'd had enough. Only one [who lives near her] has any regular contact, and he's welcome to it. He and I have always been closest and she's always tried to drive wedges, but he sees it now too and it can't be unseen. Conversation about her isn't tense and ugly - it's very matter of fact that this is who *she* is, not that it's a reflection on either of us.

It's been a long road to get to this point, but mine has very much discarded all of us. As one brother put it, we're not sure she's ever had any real connection with anyone other than as and when they can serve her. Everything is about her or it simply doesn't exist. It's either a shiny reflection of her motherhood or we're horrible terribles and she doesn't know why. There doesn't seem to be any recognition of us as individuals, separate from her - and at the same time she's made it clear she is indeed very separate and frankly disinterested. For me, finding acceptance with that has been tough.

[Markclo1]

i appreciate the posts about my sister...i guess i feel she has really has dismissed me as ive brought issues up with my father. at the moment i feel badly let down by her. But maybe over time that can change if i put some boundaries in place with my father. i have to say im not convinced though...i think she is enabling his behavior's to continue and i am not ok with that.

[moglow]

It may help to put responsibility for his behavior where it belongs - all on him. Just as it is for each of us, no one else is truly responsible for his choices. If your sister chooses to enable or excuse his behavior, that's her stuff, not yours. You don't have to subject yourself to it, even to whatever excuses she may offer for him.

Her relationship with him is separate. Truly, that's not your stuff and you don't have to sit there for it. Find your own boundaries there, even be it as simple as "sis I get what you're saying but I don't want to discuss him. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that." Then don't. Change the subject and don't go there. Maybe be a sounding board for her if you feel so moved, but learn to disengage from him on whatever level you need.

I say all that with the obv caveat that what works for one , doesn't for all. It took us a long time to get where we are and in some ways it may honestly have been her hard turning on each of us before we truly got it. Mother doesn't cull or even try to contain the nastiness. There was truly no rhyme or reason, and her excuses were further and further out there. But she always had them in reserve. It was harder to see her do it to my brothers, even though I could step outside that and see it for what it was then just be there with them while they worked through it. Ultimately I think her trying so hard to turn us against each other actually served to bring us together. How that would piss her off if she knew!

[Markclo1]

Thanks, at the moment i think that i need space from both my sister and father. Its just too hard right now to consider a relationship with either of them. We will see what happens in the future

[moglow]

Totally understand! Sometimes we need that first, to find our own clarity. We're here with you regardless.

[Markclo1]

i am trying to set some boundaries with my sister, i told her i just need some space for now and explained again the issues with my father and in the family. She doesn't seem to understand at all, she just says she doesn't understand why im doing this and that she doesn't know what

im

talking about? Not sure what else i can or should do, its very difficult

[moglow]

Your sister doesn't understand likely because she doesn't have/see/allow those issues with them herself, or she's compartmentalized them where it's not an issue for her. She may have reached some level of acceptance that works for her as best it can.

I do get it - I spent years in turmoil over mother with my brothers asking why I couldn't just let it go. I was all tied up in knots and nobody would listen to me. They saw it and they knew, but at that point their relationship with her was already pretty much nonexistent. They'd found whatever peace was available, knowing they couldn't possibly change her but had to change the way they looked at it. I didn't there until much later, and by then I'd mostly burned out.

[SonofThunder]

I just need some space for now...
..She doesn't seem to understand at all

Markclo1,

I want to recommend that you move strongly and silently forward with your self-protective boundary of 'space'.  Imo VLC leaves the door cracked open and your space will be infringed, rendering the boundary not only violated, but weak and non-beneficial, which will teach both of them that you dont have proper self-protective boundary skills. Full NC can be very good for self-healing. 

"She doesnt seem to understand at all" is not any part of proper boundary creation and implementation. Boundaries purposes are only to fully control ourselves, and are improper if enacted to attempt to control the actions and/or reactions of another person.

Ive written elsewhere about the analogy of road contruction and the two parties involved.  I wont dive deep into that again here.  In general, the construction workers get busy and erect a proper, fully protective boundary and get to work! They dont first ask the drivers to not hit them, ask them if its ok to put up the protection, and don't concern themselves one iota whether the drivers "..seem to understand at all". Drivers just find out they have to detour or otherwise peel themselves off a concrete barrier wall.

So, block everyone necessary from phone, text and email, turn off all audio and visual notification cues on your devices, and enjoy your healing, silent, freeing space.

SoT

[Hilltop]

Hey Markclo1, your sister doesn't need to understand your need for space.  If you are feeling that you need that space take it. In all honesty I have not been able to do much healing around the people who are hurting me because it's one thing after another. Taking that space has given me the opportunity to breathe, slow everything down and see a little more clearly.  IMO that space is really important. It doesn't mean it needs to be forever or permanent, it just gives you some time to work out more clearly where you want these relationships to go, what boundaries work for you etc.  Take the time you need, without guilt.  It is important for your health.

At this stage it doesn't sound like the relationship with your sister is a healthy one. Maybe down the track you may be able to have a relationship with her that is separate to your father but at the moment it sounds like everyone is glued into each other.  Taking a step back will take you out of that circle of drama.

I remember reading once that family dynamics was like an electric circuit. All the people, behaviours, reactions etc are flowing around in a loop with the components all linked in together. Often they can't see how they are bouncing off each other or how one behaviour leads to a reaction leads to another reaction leads to another behaviour etc. If there is a break anywhere in the circuit, electricity cannot flow ie circuit breaker.  Taking a step back from the family dynamics is like being a circuit breaker.  The flow can't continue, you remove yourself from the circuit and create a break in those ongoing behaviours/reactions.  I don't think I'm doing justice to the explanation but hopefully you see where the idea sort of goes. 

There are so many reasons that your sister may not understand at this point in time but her opinion about your experience doesn't really matter.  It's more important you heal and find your own peace.