Losing hold of reality

[Sector]

Sorry this is long but as I'm sure everyone here knows, nothing makes sense.  And I'm hoping someone can give me some insight.  My husband is not diagnosed with anything officially that I'm aware of.  But I have read so so much over the last 3 years from lay articles to scientific journals to individual experiences, and the only thing that resonates with me is quiet BPD.  Whether this is it or not I don't know, but I have been living under this assumption as it's the only way to get my head around the hell of a roller coaster I have been living through.  He is working really hard in therapy and I have been hopeful once he was more stable we would come out the other side of this stronger.  I must say I haven't been aggressive enough getting my own therapy needs met.  I have been seeing his therapist as an adjunct to his therapy but also for me.  At first I felt like she really thought I was the root of all the problems.  And then she seemed to recognize his deep rooted shame, cognitive distortions, emotional dysregulation, dissociations, inaccurate to completely fabricated memories, etc. so I felt ok with the therapy relationships.  But in the last couple months it has become clear that there is no plan for me.  Like...the plan is I keep putting myself out there with open honesty and vulnerability (which he is very very rarely able to reciprocate) and he has to try to self regulate in the face of that.  But three plus years into this, that usually still ends with him throwing it back in my face or running away (either literally or figuratively) which is becoming more and more harmful for me. Anyways long story short, last night he made it clear that he is sure the problem is not him. (I didn't say that it was him, and I don't do blame anyways.) That the mental health issue isn't the issue.  That it can't be that he's always the one who misremembers things because then he would be truly insane.  I do have an appointment with a new therapist next week which is the obvious step one.  But I am floored and devastated by his new assertion.  I thought at least he recognized what we were dealing with and we were on the path together.  But it seems in his mind I am still the root of the problem yet has been unwilling to guide me on what it is exactly I do that drives his Shame/guilt/all the other negative emotions.  I don't think I have felt this hopeless in a very long time

[notrightinthehead]

I am sorry you have to deal with this and glad to read that you are getting support for yourself.

Your situation sounds confusing. What makes your marriage so hard? Your husband is convinced that he is not the problem. So what is the problem? And has he any suggestions on how to solve the problem?

[Sector]

Hey thanks for the kind words. It is difficult because we are living on different planes of reality. He hears/sees aggressiveness and attacks in neutral and positive statements and actions from me. Even written word he reads between the lines when nothing is there.  I can't trust that anything I say will be taken as intended. And he often says he didn't mean what he said.  This makes communication impossible. He also spirals in response to me needing emotional support.  So me being vulnerable often leads to me being emotionally abandoned.  Which is pretty traumatic for me at this point. I could go on but that's the biggest part of it. He knows the communication or lack thereof is the problem.  Just doesn't think the mental health issue is the root of the communication problem. He is excruciatingly conflict avoidant and has yet to explain to me how I am contributing and what I could do to help.  So i really don't know

[square]

Hey, that sounds hard. I can relate to a lot of what you said.

I've learned I cannot be vulnerable to my husband. It's just reality. So I just deal with my own needs and feelings alone, because it hurts less than being stabbed in the heart when I need him. No, it doesn't make for a healthy marriage, but I can't change him.

While I don't believe I'm responsible for coddling my husband and tiptoeing around every land mine, the reality is that I live in a minefield. So I've picked my battles and when there is something I want to say, I say it more straightforward.

I used to share if I felt hurt or disappointed, but that just blows up the mine. So if I want to communicate something, I just say it without expressing the emotion.

If I ask him to pick up milk on the way home and he forgets, instead of communicating disappointment with my tone or trying to get him to understand I needed it to make dinner, I'd either just straight up ask if he could run out and get it now, or just go to plan B. There's nothing wrong with feeling disappointed in being let down. But with my husband, it's just a fact that he won't say "oh crap, sorry I forgot." So I can either live with it or leave, simple as that.

Disengaging from pointless blowups can reduce how long and bad they get. My husband used to have these all-day or two-day meltdowns. I'd be baffled and try to Explain, Defend, Justify. Now I don't bother. He still gets mad but the two day marathons don't happen anymore, and my blood pressure rarely goes up more than a couple of points. He'll just stomp out of the room and I move on with my life.

Finally, I feel very strongly that we should never, ever tell someone they are acting a certain way because of a mental illness (I mean other than a professional treating the person).

No matter whether someone is experiencing something normal or having a psychotic experience, it's pretty much the most invalidating thing you can say.

And even if their feelings and experiences are in fact invalid, expressing that will only cause harm and never ever help.

I'm not saying you have to coddle his crazy feelings and behavior. Just never label them like that.

Assuming you are a woman, what would it be like for you if every time you got upset, he told you that you were being "hormonal"? And would it feel any different whether you were or were not in fact being affected by hormones?

His issues, whatever they are, are complicated. You can't fully seperate what is mental illness, what is his innate personality, and what shaped him in his formative years.

Also, we cannot solely arbitrate what may or may not be a valud feeling in another person, even if they are clearly mentally ill. The fact is, I annoy people, I hurt their feelings, I say things wrong, and just because my clearly mentally ill husband is mad at me doesn't mean he might not have at least sort of a point about part of it.

So anyway, I'd stop bringing mental illness into any conversation at all unless it's purely supportive to him ("have you been feeling okay lately?"). And just focus on working on myself, and living my boundaries on what I will and won't tolerate.

By the way, does your husband have dark thoughts about people's motives by any chance?

[Sector]

Square thank you.  You are totally right.  I know that isn't helpful and while I didn't say anything directly about mental illness and his behavior it was probably implied hence his response.  He doesn't ever bring up anything hormonal but definitely tells me to go see his psychiatrist sometimes when he gets really frustrated with me, and ooh that is a really good way to invalidate someone's hurt! I will be more careful about that and thank you for calling me out.  I have toyed with the strategy of just not sharing. It's really really hard.  But agreed better than the reaction i get most of the time.  And...i have to laugh at your milk example.  That's one of my favorite examples of perceived aggression. "Hey did you grab the milk on the way home?" Has often been taken as an attack, so I have learned not to ask that question! Even if the answer is yes, he sees it as a test.  Why does everything have to come with a hidden agenda???

As for his interpretation of other people's motives.  It's hard to say.  He definitely has skewed versions of my motives when he is dysregulated. I don't think he's paranoid that the world is out to get him. But when he is really feeling wronged he can definitely feel like people are working against him specifically rather than something just didn't work out or bad luck if that makes sense. 

[Rebel13]

Hi Sector, I remember that sickening feeling of not knowing if I was "the problem" whenever conflict arose! I'm sorry you are going through that.

One thing your story made me think of -- something that helped me and my partner get out of that was stopping the cycle of blaming each other and identifying each other's words and behavior as THE PROBLEM. We decided that WE had a problem and we needed to work together to solve OUR problem. It was a long hard road for sure but that made it a bit easier to ask for what we each wanted, determine if we could provide that for the other, be vulnerable, and set boundaries. I don't know if your husband is willing or able to do that work. But it was a helpful perspective shift for us.

[square]

Yeah, I agree, I would not appreciate being told I need to see a psych or asked if I took my meds or anything like that, so I should certainly not do that myself.

I have toyed with the strategy of just not sharing. It's really really hard. 

It took me time to adjust. I don't think shutting everything down on a dime is realistic or frankly even desirable.

Maybe consider keeping only certain things close to the vest and see how that goes.

"Hey did you grab the milk on the way home?" Has often been taken as an attack, so I have learned not to ask that question! Even if the answer is yes, he sees it as a test.  Why does everything have to come with a hidden agenda???

Yeah, exactly. That question is fine. But, yeah, just check the fridge instead of asking, sigh.

As for his interpretation of other people's motives.  It's hard to say.  He definitely has skewed versions of my motives when he is dysregulated. I don't think he's paranoid that the world is out to get him. But when he is really feeling wronged he can definitely feel like people are working against him specifically rather than something just didn't work out or bad luck if that makes sense. 

You also mentioned "hidden agenda" above.

Society sees paranoia as being about whether the perceived threat is real or not.

But I've come to understand it as more specifically a fixation on the motives of others, regardless of whether the threat might in fact be real.

I know a woman with obvious mental health issues, and she complained to me about a neighbor boy who was apparently messing with her, like putting trash on her lawn or broke a branch on a shrub in her yard. I am not able to make any knowledgable guesses about whether the kid did anything at all or, if he did, whether it was on purpose. He may in fact have been messing with her.

It's paranoid not because it's false (it might be totally true) but because of her fixation on his motives. A non-paranoid person would be mad about it and focused on how much it cost to replant the shrub or how they are tired of picking up trash and how the neighbor parents aren't doing anything, stuff like that.

She talked at length about how the boy hated her, and described how he would plan his comings and goings around maximizing how he could bother her. It's paranoia even if he did everything she said he did, including hating her.

In my husband's case, if he is driving somewhere and running late, and behind a driver who is not going at a speed he likes, he will say the driver is going slow just to mess with him. Like the guy got up that morning and decided to be on the road and drive the speed limit right at the time my husband was going to be running late.

Anyway, I just wondered because I noticed little bits like "hidden agenda" that felt like paranoia to me.

You could look at Paranoid Personality Disorder and see if it rings a bell.

Oh, you already know this but don't mention PDs to your husband. It can be tempting, it feels like a relief to be able to say "oh thank goodness I finally figured out what's wrong!" Ha, no. Sorry for the unnecessary caution.

[Sector]

"One thing your story made me think of -- something that helped me and my partner get out of that was stopping the cycle of blaming each other and identifying each other's words and behavior as THE PROBLEM."

Rebel:
Yes this! Hubby fixates on the blame having to be applied.  I always say I don't care whose fault anything is, I just want to find the best way forward. And he knows this is how I feel.  But he has a really hard time not finding where the blame goes.  I do think it's because he blames himself internally for everything and is desperate to find something to blame on someone else to relieve the discomfort of the shame.  But I actively negate the blame talk.  On the plus side yes he absolutely wants to work together on this.  I do think what he said to me the other night about it not being the mental illness and it being both of us was along these lines it was just the way it came out and kindof out of nowhere that upset me. Rather than "we are in this together" it was "well it's your fault too".  But I guess I should take the win on it being the right idea even if it felt unnecessarily blamey. His intentions are good.  He so wants to do the work so we can be in a better place.  Right now I'm really not sure if he can tolerate much or any expression of what I need but I am hoping with the new therapist setup we can give it a go. Each time I open up and the. Have a figurative slap to the face in response it gets that much harder to try again next time so trying to protect myself a little more than I have been. I think even harder than tolerating hearing my needs, may be him expressing what he needs.  He simply doesn't.  I think that's the conflict avoidance?

[Sector]

Square, I will read up on that although I feel like at some point I did and bpd was what resonated most of the PDs.  I think what I might casually call paranoia for the most part only applies to interactions with me—I don't see him coming up with schemes like you described above.  I really think anytime he sees the hidden agenda it's more of a shame avoidance tactic where if he can come up with an explanation for why something didn't work out that was someone else's doing or fault then he can take the blame off of himself. (The blame of course is always self-applied, not by me.)

Note taken. Don't mention PDs!  At the beginning when we were trying together to figure out what was going on we read lots of stuff together and he thought bpd resonated with him as well.  And the therapist said he did have 5 of the traits but she didn't want to label it which is fine.  But now it's definitely not something safe to talk about which I get.  And I think I actually get it better now with your comments so thank you for that.  For me it just makes it easier to get my head around what's happening if I understand what is affecting him but I completely see why it's not an acceptable topic anymore.

[square]

Hubby fixates on the blame having to be applied. 

Our husbands should get together and go bowling. Yes, it's the same here, the fixation is on figuring out whose fault it is, and making it stick. Sometimes even during emergencies the priority is getting the blame sorted instead of getting/giving help.

I do think it's because he blames himself internally for everything and is desperate to find something to blame on someone else to relieve the discomfort of the shame. 

Yes, it's the same here. When he is upset, everything is everybody else's fault. Or "the universe" if no-one else can be blamed.

But I've seen him vulnerable and he ultimately despises himself. Blaming others is basically the only way he can stay in one piece because he is held together with scotch tape and a prayer.

Square, I will read up on that although I feel like at some point I did and bpd was what resonated most of the PDs. 

T'was just a thought.

I personally don't know if my husband really fits anything either. BPD fit the closest for me too, he fears rejection, is emotionally reactive, can be vulnerable, has black and white thinking and switches between hating my guts and wanting me to die, and wanting to be with me forever. Just felt BPDish but not quite the full thing.

Note taken. Don't mention PDs!  At the beginning when we were trying together to figure out what was going on we read lots of stuff together and he thought bpd resonated with him as well.  And the therapist said he did have 5 of the traits but she didn't want to label it which is fine.  But now it's definitely not something safe to talk about which I get.  And I think I actually get it better now with your comments so thank you for that. 

Personality Disorders are probably the hardest diagnostic group for someone to face having. Some people with BPD do accept their diagnoses but I think they see it a little differently than the rest of the world does - the emphasis is on the self harm and internal emotional state rather than interpersonal problems.

It's pretty ugly to admit that, basically, your personality is broken and people can't tolerate you. That's maybe an oversimplified description but I think the point stands.

For me it just makes it easier to get my head around what's happening if I understand what is affecting him but I completely see why it's not an acceptable topic anymore.

100%. Research away. Post here. Just make sure he'll never find your posts.

[MaxedOut]

The fixation on blame/fault and on others' motives is huge with my spouse (for whom BPD as an issue resonates with me, and who has all but one or two of the clinical diagnostic traits).

Sector, that sounds like a frustrating situation. It sounds like maybe your therapeutic roles is more "adjunct" to your husband's treatment than works for your needs? Having my own therapist has been incredibly important. Only being a sidecar therapeutically to my wife's therapy would be really difficult for me. I have spent far too many years focused on understanding her, trying things that may help her regulate, reading up on BPD (and bipolar, which she is diagnosed for). Even with my own therapist, it's been really hard to break of "puzzle-solving" and minimizing issues with how I'm treated-because I now understand the deeper drives.

That has not made anything better in terms of her treatment of me or our communication. I also think if I was tagging along to her therapy I'd be super conscious of my words, careful about what I express. Which I do enough of daily around my spouse.

Personally I need my own therapist. I need someone who is primarily interested in my well-being. Who can push back when I seem to prioritize vulnerability when the dynamic is weathering dysregulation in return.

It is worrisome to me that the therapist is encouraging you to really put yourself out there over and over when your husband is not able to receive or reciprocate that responsibly. I get that #relationshipgoals include honesty, openness, and vulnerability as an ideal, but that can be pretty counterproductive with PD relationships (if it's emotionally unsafe to do those things, why is is incumbent upon the non mentally ill person to keep doing it?).

[Sector]

Square oh wow so many similarities! The bowling would  be great—mine does well with a controlled outlet to hit and throw things! Ps boxing gym has been immensely helpful. And I notice when he hasn't been in a few days!

I don't know where either he or the therapist stands on a diagnosis other than they don't want to label him. Is it because they don't want a BPD label or because they think I'm crazy? Who knows.  I do know hubby and his sister believe their mother has BPD.  The psych completely blew me off the two times I brought it up: "The main symptom with BPD is difficulty with interpersonal relationships, and I just don't see that problem with him." Umm...wuuut? This was a private convo so husband wasn't privy to it. Yikes. Ps he has no long term relationships other than me and family...and we see how stable this relationship is!!!

But regardless of accepting a diagnosis or not, yes he is totally focused on quieting the inner turmoil and avoiding self harm.  And I do think he has made a ton of progress here.  The issue is that he desperately wants us to be us again.  But there has not been any guidance for me on how to attempt that safely.

Maxed out you really hit the nail on the head.  While I am in theory in therapy with the person that understands what I am facing at home, it is becoming crystal clear to me that either she really isn't seeing that or she isn't able to see both of our realities and truly believe mine when I am there.  I see her this morning and will let her know I am going to try someone who has no knowledge of the situation.  The amount of validation and support I've found here in the last 24 hours has made me feel so much better so I'm optimistic a new therapist will be really helpful for me. I think I've been so stuck in the thinking that it was helpful for her to keep hearing my perspective to know what is REALLY happening but...it makes me feel so much worse to put all this out there and get back to just keep trying to communicate. Which indeed is harmful to me. 

The next catch is I agreed to start with a new therapist for the two of us together. Who will hopefully help us communicate. I will go with optimism that he is in a stable enough place that it will be productive...but man every time we have tried this it has been a disaster.  Either because he completely shuts down or masks.   I will have a few sessions with my new therapist to prepare for that so hopefully i can at least avoid harm if it's not useful.  I did notice the couples therapist lists DBT on her website so I'm hoping that's a good sign. 🙏

[sunshine702]

Can we talk about the ABUSE that happens during these episodes?!

I have read this thread three times and was on the verge of tears.  It all rings dead on accurate to what I experienced.

Alternate reality - exactly!

I watch online therapists like Dr Fox be super compassionate to the BPD suffering patient. I agree not to blame shame and stigmatize. I tried it too as well.  I tried to work on OUR "we" problem.

But there was EPIC MENTAL AND PHYSICAL ABUSE that I was subjected to!!  Or the alternate was him in his office silent treatment.

No other mental illness (besides maybe Schizophrenia)! do we not put the responsibility on the abuser.

Your strategies for staying are very helpful. And I promise I believe in staying too- I did for years.  I eventfully chose to leave despite it being extremely painful because a pretty house and amicable dinners were not enough to make up for violent rages out of nowhere. That they take ZERO responsibility for because "they were flooded"
One of the first times I fled to the hotel he raged out of nowhere packed my suitcase and screamed at me GET OUT!!  His solution when I got home 3 days later? - buy an electronic scheduler.  As if violently packing my suitcase and raging at me was a schedule misunderstanding.

If you kick the bunny enough it will leave for good and never come back no matter the reason for the kicking

[sunshine702]

I also want to talk about looking for hidden motives because I hang out in that side of the pool. I am what people call a "conspiracy theorist". I think adolescence I was always looking for the REAL reason for events.  I believe the events happen but I often dig into the money and the timing or alternate "who benefits?"
behind.  I don't think this makes me mentally ill or even paranoid. 

And to be honest my ex used to make fun of me quite a bit for it.  He believes what the official line is and anyone else is delusional.  So I don't think BPD are conspiratorial in the alternate thinking just oppositional maybe

[Sector]

@Sunshine I'm so sorry for letting this get away from me.  Been a little overwhelmed with life lately.  It's interesting you talk about the abuser not being given the responsibility for the abuse in this situation.  I will say that my husband and his therapist mutually decided to start with DBT maybe a month ago (Cue my internal monologue of why why why did it take several years to get to that point?) And there has been a big improvement in his ability to handle routine figuring it out sort of conversations so that's a big positive. That said, we have also started with a couples therapist who doesn't seem concerned about (or doesn't recognize) all the false statements he makes about me when he gets riled up and when I asked the therapist about it, my instructions were to let those misconceptions alone.  I have raised that for me the misrepresentation of my character is one of my biggest triggers yet to make him more comfortable about what he reads as criticism (or events that literally never happened) I can't correct what I feel are false statements about me and my character.  So...yeah it seems to be all about keeping him comfortable even if it's at a major expense to me.  Or she just doesn't think we actually are on different planes of reality.  Hard to say for now.  Anyways, I'm interested to see if the DBT continues to stabilize him enough that this becomes a non-issue in time...

I have to also laugh at the "misunderstanding" because ugh I get so incredibly frustrated with his use of the words miscommunication and misunderstanding.  Or "we miscommunicated". Ok...I mean I said simply and literally what I needed to say.  He inferred something of opposite meaning.  Yet WE miscommunicated. With that approach to the issue rather than looking at why there is all this cognitive distortion or how to address such, I don't see how talking about how we can communicate better is of any relevance.  I just don't get it. Should we just not be doing counseling together until he is farther along with the DBT? He does seem to completely understand all of this out of the heat of the moment which is a major improvement.  But in the sessions I'm like...why am I here?

[TurnThePage]

Oh Sector...I can so relate to what you are saying. 

My BPDH and I could never do couples therapy because afterward He would tell me that We (the therapist and I) were "ganging up on him"

As I often say ...It's his world, I'm just living in it.

Stay strong and know there are others that understand what you are going through.  Keep up your therapy and work on yourself.

The only person you can change is yourself.

[Sector]

Turnthatpage yes working on myself and understanding boundaries has been really positive, and it's so true that I can't change how he perceives things/me.  I'm not great at the boundaries yet but at least able now to prevent myself from being sucked into his downward spirals which is huge!  I could see the ganging up perception happening if the therapist was recognizing what is happening.  But either she has an unspoken strategy to make me squirm in the untruths being said about me (this is possible I suppose?) or she actually thinks I'm an overly critical nag who has driven him to this horrible place of shame and spiraling anxiety (I think this is more likely her perception) The plan is to go in next week and again ask if she really intended that I not get to share my perspective and if so, we will not continue going. It's funny while I know it must feel totally unproductive if hubby feels ganged up on, and I wouldn't want him to feel that way, it would just for a minute give me some validation that the therapist recognizes who each of us is. 🤪

Living in his world.  That's a really good way to put it.  So accurate!

[TurnThePage]

Sector

I am so happy to hear you are working on yourself and you are having positive results.

My BPDH was so good at spinning his side of it that one of his therapist thought it couldn't possibly be him. So don't take what that therapist says to heart. 

It was only after seeing my own therapist (separately from H) that I was able to see what my part was in the dynamic was.

After a recent downward spiral I realize I am still a work in progress when it comes to boundaries....Live and Learn

[Sector]

Oof I'm sorry for the recent spiral.  That's really tough when you think you're past all that. I am not great with the boundaries yet but at least have been pretty consistently able to extricate myself from spiraling situations—I used to not recognize what was happening until I was already under water. So much more work but given I've only had my own therapist for a month or so I'm feeling really good about that.  I had initially been seeing my husband's therapist as an adjunct for him but when I started feeling like I really needed help for me, instead of telling me to go elsewhere, she kept assuring me she could handle balancing both of us...but that couple years was super damaging to me and yes, lesson learned.  Now in one month I'm already learning how to set boundaries and how to process the anxiety in the bad moments.  None of this had been addressed. 

I definitely don't fully understand my part in the dynamic yet. He has such a hard time explaining anything and also often doesn't say all the words he meant to say but then gets frustrated if I ask for clarification.  So hopefully there can be some progress on that.  On his bad days he still is sure that my incessant criticism is the cause of all his demons.  I am not that person, but I really would like to understand why he reads me that way. Although still not sure if there is something in my control to change that would help.  Very eager to figure that one out!

[TurnThePage]

Thank you Sector

Everything had been so good for so long that I got complacent. Things are better now because I am resetting my boundaries and remembering how to deal with him. Got a little lax on when things were going well....

My BPDH is very bad at explaining what is going on with him and he shuts down. I often internalize that it has something to do with me when he is down etc....   So I definitely understand what you mean.   Just know that it is not you or your "incessant criticism" He just takes it that way because of His inner demons. My H does the same and that is what caused the recent problem.   I made a comment and he took it as a criticism.  I reacted poorly.... I needed to realize that it really wasn't what I said but how he was feeling about himself! 

Hope that makes sense....