Am I the problem?

[Marianne]

My family has been endlessly telling me I'm the problem. Of everything. Even getting scared of incest.

But I also started to fight back in nasty ways, screaming and despairing. I became as they wanted me to be. I'm calm and kind to everyone else. Even when they harass or attack me. But still.

What if I'm the narcissist? I think I became quite narcissistic in the relationship with my parents specificly. Just freaking out everytime they triggered me. And because they had such a sweet side too...I wonder...what if it's me? What if they treated me badly, because I WAS a bad child?

[NarcKiddo]

The general wisdom seems to be that if you wonder if you are the narcissist that is a major sign that you are, in fact, not. I think it is interesting that you behave this way with your family only, specifically your parents. I imagine they modelled behaviours to you that you are now reflecting back to them. Possibly you are getting into a childlike state when you do this.

I have displayed many narcissistic traits in my time. Especially as a young adult when I was still deeply in the FOG and totally enmeshed with my mother. I dislike that about myself, but am trying to cut myself some slack on the basis that I was behaving as I was brought up to behave. Now I recognise the potential for me to behave in that way I can work on curbing it. From what you write I suspect you may be struggling with similar things. Please be kind and gentle with yourself as you work this out.

[notrightinthehead]

Marianne, have you checked out "fleas"? Because we have grown up with difficult people we have acquired certain behavioural features that are not healthy. You might also have c-PTSD traits. Or your parents have enabled, if not encouraged problematic behaviour. You could also show co-dependent behaviour. The difference between a person with a Personality disorder and a person with fleas is, the PD person does not have any awareness or insight what their behaviour does to others. Since you show some awareness and question your behaviour, its likely that you have a chance of change, of becoming more mature emotionally, of loosing your problematic behavioural patterns, and be an emotionally healthy person.

[Marianne]

Thanks.

It is really weird.

My family modelled bad behaviour. And even pushed it on me. Like purposefully eliciting a response by pushing all my buttons, and seeking out the most painful spots to harm and humiliate me, until I snapped and lashed out. Any kind of healthy behaviour, like setting a calm boundaries or calmly walking out, was met with trying to hurt me more, until I finally snapped.

I hate that side of me.

I've unlearned nearly everything I learned in my family. With other people, I am emotionally mature. My communication with them is very healthy. My ex-boss (social worker) wrote me a testimony saying social skills are my asset. That I empathize with everyone. I am open. And I respond very calmly and assertively even when threatened and attacked. My current colleagues say I'm empathic, but should learn to not blame myself too much. And stand up better when someone is nasty.

As to my son, I've never even raised my voice to him. I am very calm in my communication with him.

It's just that my family has been so hurtful to me and my son. They traumatized me, then took him, then every time I became more healthy they kicked me down again. They took my son, undermine my motherhood, sabotage it every time he genuinely opens himself. Triangulated the whole family. Threatened me to not talk. Threatened kid to not talk. Manipulate, gaslight. And my son gave signals too...that he wanted to die because of how it was there, that they verbally abused him, manipulated him, scared hiim. Now they got him attached. And shut up. And he behaves codependently. As I did as kid.

And it is totally not acknowlegded. They  pretend to be perfect. It's so unjust, that I just want to scream and kick and beg and plea. To reach my dad. And protect my son.

I feel terribly guillt and tell everyone my mistakes and try be kind. But the pain about my child is SO grand. That I just feel like throwing chairs at them every day. :-/

I feel angry at self...because I was manipulated into becoming like them...and every time I stepped out they pushed me back...and I cannot control myself, because they hurt my child, and the bond with my child, and I couldn't protect him. I know exactly how to communicate healthily...but it's always met with unhealthy responses, like gaslighting...and I just reached my breaking point. They have my kid. And they hurt him.

 

[Marianne]

I did a lot of introspection and overhauled all my life and my self. 

But I am just extremely angry of how they hurt me and my kid. And never acknowlegde it. And I begged them endlessly to solve our problems together, explaining it calmly a billion times. They feel perfect.

I pushed myself for a very long time to stay in contact. And I can't anymore. 

I feel I'm reverting to an angry and abandonned childlike state. Every time they hurt my child or me. And play nasty games. 

[Marianne]

I don't know how to explain the dynammic...as examples...

Context
- Dad told me after mum died that he'd play nasty games over my kids head. And that he was so smart that I wouldn't notice. Then started to act real threatening and manipulative. Dad came from a narcissist family (he says) and uses all the tactics. He is very calculated. 
- This triggers extreme flashbacks in me to earlier narcissistic abuse where my child was in danger. I tried to keep this inside, but sometimes I either panicked or lashed out (I refrain from that now and stay away in flashbacks).
- I sought help and asked how to control my flashbacks.
- I begged dad endlessly to also take responsibility, for the sake of our son, and seek help. I explained what exact behaviour triggered my flashbacks. He refused to seek help. Said he was perfect. And that he wanted to hurt me.
- He influenced all family with twisted stories. Said nobody would believe me anymore, because they were all on his side already.
- I was extremely worried about kid, self and dad. And did not know how to get all three of us help.

Action
- I reached out to my brother. He always idealised our parents and demonised me. But I tried to be humble, apologized for my side, and took the superscary risk to be vulnerable. And talk about the things happening with my dad now...and with my parents as child. I told him f.e. that mum and dad forced me to sleep with someone against my will as a teen. And defended my incestuous uncle too. I asked him if he wanted to watch a short movie with me, that explained the effects of sexual abuse in a family. I had to overcome intense fear to speak up.
- Brother said bluntly he didn't believe me.
- I begged to please talk openly with eachother, because things aren't alwawys what they seem. He refused. No help again. 
- I asked brother not to talk with dad. Because he would not respond well. Brother said openness was important. I thought: you have no idea how they threaten me and kid when I am open...

Effect
- I called dad later that day and he was clearly pissed off. In a covert way. He's always passive agressive. Saying he noticed I was instable - I was not at all. And he would not let me see son the next day. He always revenge when I speak up about the abuse.
- I called brother and he had indeed talked to my father.

My narcissistic response
- I felt so extremely scared and abandonned by family. Like as a kid, when I was sexually abused, and everyone blamed me. Or when my sociopath ex threatened my kid and nobody would believe me. I felt suicidal. Feeling there was no escape.
- I lashed out to brother by text. Sommething like: I am suicidal and it is your fault.
- It was not a controlled attempt to manipulate. It rather feels like impulsively scream "ouch!" when someone hurts you badly.

Effect
- After, my brother and dad felt they handled this perfectly.
- They felt I was extremely nasty to text this. Dad said they would use it to show others.
- I felt I was extremely nasty to text this. And yet I do not have a habit of threatening suicide. I never did. Not with friend, boyfriends, anyone. When suicidal because of the abuse in my teens, I never told, not wanting to hurt them.

Now
- I now feel constant pain and fear over my family. But I avoid them and respond correctly. So I kind of solved my side. But I still feel superguilty for lashing out like that. And stupid: it will be used against me.   

[Marianne]

Sorry for ranting. Sometimes I'm just in pain.

I see my parents manipuation. I see how it destroyed me as a person and a mother. And I see how their behaviour and my response to it hurt my kid. And I'm extremely frustrated with everyone at the moment - myself first. Me, because I could not control my emotional responses. My parents and the five billion people I begged for help, because everyone shut their ears. And looked away. Sorry for ranting.

I think I just had all sorts of bad responses to the abuse. I unlearned most of them for many years. But the contact with my family keeps me ill. Recently I control my flashbacks well. But I feel they made me into a deregulated monster.

[mary_poppins]

Hi Marianne.
Wow, I can see what these people did to you from a mile away. They have gaslit you to believe if you react negatively to their insidious abuse, you are bad, you are abusive, you are the problem. Can you see that you are NOT the one with the issues here? They have taken your mind and turned it into a mess just because they want you to be hurt so they can keep you in their world for narcissistic supply, attention and validation.

I am very sorry. Your family members seem very dangerous to have around.

[mary_poppins]

Marianne, have you checked out "fleas"? Because we have grown up with difficult people we have acquired certain behavioural features that are not healthy. You might also have c-PTSD traits. Or your parents have enabled, if not encouraged problematic behaviour. You could also show co-dependent behaviour. The difference between a person with a Personality disorder and a person with fleas is, the PD person does not have any awareness or insight what their behaviour does to others. Since you show some awareness and question your behaviour, its likely that you have a chance of change, of becoming more mature emotionally, of loosing your problematic behavioural patterns, and be an emotionally healthy person.

100% agree with you

[Marianne]

Thanks...

I just don't know how to escape. Nobody sees their abuses...not even themselves. My father built a highly strategical story with lots of "proof" and "support". I've lashed out, threatened suicide, turned crazy, etc.

I have thought of Cassandra Syndrome, which happens with autism (but maybe also PD).

[Marianne]

I thought about it.

I think my family had problems. And they didn't start with me.

It is not normal to tell your kid in a hurtful tone that they were a bad child for being scared of visits - after incest that you know of. 

It is not normal to gaslight someone constantly.

It is not normal to make someone sleep with a man.

It is not normal to threaten and humiliate a kid. Or emotionally blackmail someone into being silent.

Or if you kid begs you: please seek help because your behaviour literally drives me insane and to suicide...to tell her: no because I don't want to do what you want.

ALSO...I think many of the things you guys mentioned were true.

I had taken over a lot of problems myself, if not a full personality disorder. I solved a lot of issues in other contacts. But the situation with family keeps dragging me back in.

That is part my fault. I did immensely stupid stuff. And I should have focused on rebuilding my life. Rather than changing and rescuing them. And fighting them to change.

I think it doesn't really matter what it is...I will continue acting as I find good. No matter their ways.

Only need to think what now with my kid...whether to speak up or shut up.

[Liketheducks]

Nope....the mere fact that you're asking the question means that you're not the problem.   Everyone has some narc tendencies.   

[Marianne]

I realise they broke me so, that I did become part of the problem. And that I will never be able to protect my child or our bond. My heart is breaking and breaking and breaking. And I hate myself for not leaving the family many years before - with my child.

[Marianne]

Ok. I whined enough. I feel super sad about all of us. And angry at self and parents and brothers.

But how best to protect kid.

My dad won't give him back.
My family and cps believe all the lies.
I was driven so crazy and desperate that I doubt I'd even be capable of caring for him better.

Flee?
Fight? Tell cps all? With the likely outcome that they won't believe me. And I lose kid.
Fawn? Work along so I can at least see kid? And be there?

[Marianne]

I need advice.

I invited father and brothers for systems therapy. It is no use though. The last times they invited me ended in;

- No response.
- I did nothing wrong ever i do not need help.
- I will not do what you want - confrontational toddler tone. When asking to please seek help because I was at the verge of suicide because of his actions.
- Something along the lines of: we are perfect, you are the problem and to blame for everything. So we secretly sat together to make a list of all your wrongs and all you should change. We need no change. You are going to listen to us. Because your truth is crazy. We will not listen to you. Oh Marianne, what do you know?
- We had a talk. I told them mum always humiliated me and forced me to sleep with a boy. They said: we do not believe you. She was not like that. I thought: she was always like that.
- I apologized. Then suggested not all is my fault. They ranted for half an hour how I was evil and they all were unconditionally loving and helping.

I admit I had a problem.
I just cannot go along with their story anymore though. It's untruth.
They also will not listen to my story. It is to threatening to their self-idealisation/parent-idealisation/wife-idealisation.

They expect me to bend over backwards to say I am the cause of everything bad, even being abused. Mum and dad manipulated everyone and I responded openly. They are never going to believe me. And I refuse to submit to their nonsense.

Any advice: how to lovingly tell them I disconnect? And they can come back once they stopped manipulating/going along in manipulation? And stop the black-and-white "you monster we heroes" story?
 

[Rebel13]

Any advice: how to lovingly tell them I disconnect? And they can come back once they stopped manipulating/going along in manipulation? And stop the black-and-white "you monster we heroes" story?
 

Hi Marianne,

My advice? Don't tell them. Boundaries are for you -- they are about what you will or won't do to protect yourself. There's a great article in the toolbox on Boundaries, along with a special thread in the forum from back in May, I believe. I encourage you to check it out! It helped me understand better how to set and protect boundaries for myself.

[Marianne]

Thanks. Not sure though.

I still have this secret hope that if I confront my father, and say: either we stop lying and find each other again...or I quit contact....he will say: oh yeah okay I will stop lying then. Let's find each other again. That would be so great. 

[Marianne]

I spoke to my dad, gave him one last chance, and went as-low-as-possible-with-son-inbetween-contact.

I came in with tears rolling  over my cheeks from sadness. He said: you come in angry. He cannot differentiate the two.

I told him quietly that I wanted to break all contact, because of both his responses and my incapability to respond well to that anymore.

We had a horrible conversation. With him denying everything. And blaming me for everything. And telling me he had decided already this summer holiday to not listen to me anymore (wow will that be a change..  ). And telling me angrily to leave the house, almost slamming the door in my face. because I was a nasty person. That he did so much for me. And I was ungrateful.

I feel horrid. I feel like I am a horrible daughter and mother, I am indeed to blame for everything, and I am indeed ungrateful. That maybe I see it all wrong. I'm in pain. I feel evil and I feel like God will be angry for breaking contact.

I feel like calling dad and begging him to please do things differently together. To be loving and kind to each other again.

Any advices?

[xredshoesx]

@Marianne I feel so deeply for you today.

I have been NC with my biological mother for over 30 years now and am currently in the process of quiet quitting my vvvvvllllc relationship with my father. 

why?  I got tired of having my experiences minimized or denied about what happened to me in childhood with my mother- she would never admit the truth to the CSA that happened in the home she placed me in with her parents; and it's hard to deny bc it HAPPENED TO HER TOO AS A CHILD.  with my dad I got tired of being the one to carry the relationship so I no longer reach out.

my best advice is look at what continually trying to maintain a healthy adult relationship with your father is doing to your tender heart.  i'm not saying drop the ball entirely, but let him be the one to reach out to you.  it doesn't guarantee he'll acknowledge his part in the abuse you endured, but it keeps your tender heart from being continually kicked about each time you do the reaching out.

be gentle with yourself today.  be strong for your kiddo.  i imagine it's like being pulled in all directions trying to keep balance and peace for yourself.

[Marianne]

Thank you so.

I'm sorry you had to go this route, and what caused that.

It's indeed being pulled to all directions. I feel relief. I feel severe regret that I didn't do this 10 years earlier. When I could still get my kid out. I feel grief. I feel I'm a horrid sinner and will be punished.

There's zero self-reflection. Or acknowledgment of his and my and my kid's trauma. 

But what was the ultimate deciding factor...is that our relationship warps my own character. I respond in ways that are totally uncharacteristic. Because by now I want to throw chairs at him (figuratively) for his behaviour. And it makes me look (or am) abusive. When he hides his problem and looks like an angel.

It's blocking my healing. My pastor asked: who is your priority? Your dad or your kid? That kind of did it. I cannot care for my kid if I'm continuously triggered by my dad.

I'll indeed wait for him to initiate things...which will likely never happen.