Here we go…

[Pig wrestler]

Company has left. The act has been dropped. I'm getting the wicked cold shoulder. I will be looking to really "listen" this time at the aggression coming from w. I have to remember all she wants is to get the upper hand, be in control, have me apologize and pretty much bow  down to her reasoning. How hurt she is because of my lack of love... or whatever she comes up with this time. I rarely explode or get upset, but just take it. Can y'all please give me some pointers on how to handle myself and maybe "key" words to listen for. I still don't know how she  pulls the wool... but I really want to learn.

[Queenfrog]

I suggest that rather than looking for "key words" you instead get in touch with your own feelings. If her speech or behavior is making you feel angry, uncomfortable, hurt, or whatever, you don't have to "take it". You can just leave! So that's the first thing. And you really can just leave. You don't have to give a warning or an ultimatum first - in fact, that's unlikely to be helpful. And it doesn't matter if you are "right" or "wrong." You simply don't have to stick around if you feel bad in the situation. Your feelings are enough justification all on their own.

(I have taught my spouse that the use of certain words will trigger an automatic exit on my part. "Moron." "Child" "Two-year old." That hasn't worked super well -- he just finds other words or ways around the "rules." But at least it's a start.)

Sometimes I just go for a 5-10 minute walk and find that's enough to reset emotions and make a fresh start with the spouse.

Also! Especially as I was just getting started with the Toolbox on this site, I found the "NO JADE" rule to be the most useful. It has taken some practice to learn to stop justifying myself, arguing, defending myself, and explaining myself to him when he starts in on me. And WOW! It has made a big difference! As I worked with the rule, I have found that even the least bit of JADE does nothing but feed his motor. Nothing. With NO JADE, he runs out of gas a lot sooner and things don't escalate as much or as often. If he's escalating all on his own, I know it's time to leave for a bit.

I hope this helps!

[SonofThunder]

The toolbox holds the keys to your question.  As Queenfrog stated, noJADE is a worthwhile tool to master, alongside medium-chill/grey-rock and others.  The toolbox takes time, but you have to start somewhere.  Don't ever reveal your playbook.

Imo, its more about your reaction and less about what the PD says.  Think of your PDw as a person always fishing and you are just a peaceful, hungry fish. You are going to see a variety of lures presented and again, does it matter to the fish what the presented lure looks/sounds like from this person?  No.

All that matters is that the fish recognizes that this person fishing is always there trying to catch a fish, so just stay under the log.  The fish desires real food to live, but this person is not there to feed fish, but rather entice them out from under the safety of the log to get barbed in the lip, reeled in against their will and then tossed back a bit bloody. That sequence is a very satisfying event for the fishing PD and in total contrast, an exhausting and painful struggle for the peaceful fish. 

Wash, rinse, repeat. 

SoT

[MaxedOut]

 

[square]

You are doing great. Refuse the bait.

There's a good chance she'll blow at some point. If she can get you to display any emotion, she'll say you were the one who got mad. This stuff takes practice, and even with practice we all crack sometimes. But if you can stay chill, maybe act calm and mildly confused, she'll have a heck of a time pinning it on you.

If she escalates to anything physical, including throwing things, get the heck out of there immediately. Go get coffee or something.

How are you feeling, how are you holding up emotionally?

[square]

Or, you don't have to actconfused at all. It's just an option if you're feeling cornered by questioning.

You can just medium chill it and change the subject, for example. Suggest an activity or say you're running to the store, does she need anything. Spend time with the kids.

[square]

I really understand all that.

What you are doing is in your hands. You are choosing to de-escalate and to not engage in nonconstructive behavior.

How she will respond remains to be seen and is up to her.

You de-escalating is a positive step. Your wife has the opportunity to make a positive change of her own. If she does not, it will not be because you caused it. You are pulling back the curtain, so to speak, and she decides what that will reveal.

It does feel sad to disengage because you will both feel the loss of connection. But if the connection is poisoned, something needs to change.

[bloomie]

I didn't label her actions out loud but I did ignore her requests for further escalation.

Bravo!!!!

The beauty of choosing to engage when it is productive and to calmly and kindly disengage when it is not is that it has huge benefits in every relationship, every encounter we have! It is a fabulous life skill and set of tools you are developing for yourself. Well done!

[MaxedOut]

The beauty of choosing to engage when it is productive and to calmly and kindly disengage when it is not is that it has huge benefits in every relationship, every encounter we have! It is a fabulous life skill and set of tools you are developing for yourself.

To build on this...

It helped me be better aware of what is going on with my activation and nervous system, which is totally beneficial to other relationships and encounters. I think manu of us percieve these situations in a comparative lens of interactions. Being "way more rational and not being a jerk like that person who started and escalated this" doesn't actually mean "able to communicate, hear, think clearly."

Applying the tools and applying my own boundaries about removing myself from certain situations helped me make the connection that I am "significantly compromised" when in anxiety or flight/flight/freeze/fawn. And "taking a breather" and then paying attention to my body and mind as my autonomic nervous systems reregulated helped me really see what I need at the moment, what effects that activation has on my perception/cognition/attitude. And helped me figure out what is helpful for reregulating.

It's so valuable not just for that relationships and other relationships but I have that awareness now when noone else is in the picture and can work through and manage internal activation. And after years of eggshells and aggressive reactions - we, umm, often have a lot of stuff triggering reactions from years of hypervigalence and treatment that is not kind, respectful, and caring. Being able to pull your view up and look at the story you are telling yourself when activated versus later when calmed is illuminating.

I wasn't exactly sold on this at first. Part of surviving in this situation was "abuse amnesia." So part of me valued the clarity of some of those natural feelings even if I was not really sharing them. I was at least not tucking them under the rug. "Yeah, I'm angry right now and I am right to be pissed!" was a positive step earlier. But, when the nervous system reregulated it got confusing and more complicated and in a trauma bond it can be easy to swing the other way with the relief of not being in the midst of conflict/crisis.

Perhaps counterintuitively, understanding when I was getting very black and white and angry and bitter, plus developing the muscles to bring myself back to a more grounded place, helped me better see the situation, instead of just internally swinging chaotically when a chaotically swinging partner grabbing my swing (the nerve!). I could empathize for myself and feel the feelings while also getting that part of the experience was about my nervous system. And I could better discriminate things and focus on what is really important (including seeing my system go nuts and how harmful that is when frequent). I could better understand her feelings and that they are not so much about whatever actual thing the words or events were pointing too - which is helpful in its own right - but also probaby have some truth to them that I couldn't see well.

I could better hold multiple truths (dialectics) like love and sadness and understanding for her and also for me and that her struggles do not mean it's OK to chornically mistreat me. Ooh - and I could see her throwing out FOG hooks (trying to hook me using fear, obligation, and guilt). I didn't have to take the hook anymore, which could have been buying in tot the lense or rejecting the notiong but was very polarized either way.

There is a helpful ~letting-go~ when you aren't trying to respond like you might with a non-PD. You also start to realize the futility of JADE-ing ("It doesn't actually matter what I say, it won't be beleived or it will get flipped around and used to attack... none of this is about me, really... JADEing just fuels things or is neutral at worst"). I think I was reading "Radicaly Acceptance" around the time of (painfully) trying to learn no-JADE. Gray rocking was a bit easier because I had already started to have some lightly dissociative reactions during the most intense stuff. And a frequent criticism from my STBx is about not listening, so I could gray rock with that as a partial focus. She, of course, still thought I did not listen at all, but it helped me to not JADE, and start actually enforcing boundaries when more abusive behaviors started, because I was less wrapped up in the particulars and whether fair/unfair or correct/incorrect or such.

[square]

What a night. Yeah.

Well done keeping calm and excusing yourself.

It's crazy to me that they want fights and drama and not a nice, calm card game.

[SonofThunder]

Well done Pig wrestler.  I was threatened with divorce at least 7 times over a span of 15-20 years.  Once I learned later on in that time span about Fear of Abandonment (I believe FoA is a foundational trait), I knew that the divorce threats were just a very harsh verbal form of persecution in hopes to shock-cycle me back to obedience so my wife could feel secure again and avoid her rising feelings of FoA.

Just keep on keepin' on with the toolbox in a calm and steady manner.  Again well done in calling BS quietly to yourself on the threat and walking away. 

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/fear-of-abandonment

SoT

[MaxedOut]

Great job! Isn't is such a different experience once you learn and can (internally) name specific behaviors and tactics, for lack of a better word. I remember once conversation when I had developed a bit of noJADE and grey rock discipline and had read enough to think in terms of different types of manipulations and hooks, and just listening to them get fired off like bingo numbers on your card.

There was one point where she was just sort of firing randomly, seeing if something's would hook or stick. I am used to the kitchen sink coming at me but it was weird and telling; with no energy getting picked back up I was clearly seeing her mind trying to conjure whatever and just firing stuff off watching for effect. That specific thing didn't happen again as she acclimated to me not engaging more. But it showed me how much it was about wanting conflict, wanting escalation, and then to go off on me more, to win-when I had been thinking about it as just really overwhelmed and upset and not in control.

[MaxedOut]

Threats of divorce came in the past couple of years with my STBXw and I wouldn't hazard a guess at the count. But not with follow through, not to say she wasn't thinking about the possibility but it seemed to be more about hurting me, hating me in the moment, and emotional manipulation. There was even more the other direction (but over time less idealization and more about reliance and fear of abandonment). It's all pretty sad and self-fulfilling.

[notrightinthehead]

I had some recordings 'overcome anxiety and panic attacs' guided meditations that I would listen to. Check out Kristen Neff.  I also learned mindfulness and did meditations. Tara Brach's book was helpful. With time I managed to slow my heart beat down and breathe deeply and calmly. There is a lot on YouTube on offer, check it out.

[SonofThunder]

So, even though her threat of divorce was a sham, it's not really sitting with well with me. Really anxious and heart palpitations. What have y'all done in the past to cope with these feelings?

I was chosen by my PDw because I am high-radar and feel deeply. Made me a better caretaker...

For me, I've never been able to free myself from the throws of tumult in my declining relationship with my wife and now into divorce.  It's who I am.  I consider myself a moderate HSP (Dr Elaine Aron) and so I accept my strong feelings and how my 'Body Keeps the Score' (great book by Van Der Kolk). 

Since it's who I am, I have learned to look at anxiety and my physical changes (heart racing, shallow breathing, brain fog, GI issues) like frequent high ocean waves and in strongest moments like a unseen yet powerful rip current.  Fight against either one of them and it can be a problem.  The solution for me is instead to accept and ride.  With waves, its up, over the top and down with a slight pause and again up, over the top and down.  In the stronger moments its again acceptance of the arrival in the rip and then remain calm and allow the strong outward current to float me to much deeper water and when done its thing, I gently float & swim sideways to get out and then come leisurely back to shore, preserving my energy. 

Im personally done trying to rid myself of anxieties and physical signs that im in a stressful period, because as a high-radar, high-feels person, its just me.  Im good with me.  I love me. 

My PDw knew i was this way and so the threats of divorce were a well-placed arrow; meant to shock me into compliance.  Even when I started to see the repetition of threats and other accusations over the years, knowing they were a bully-move from a scared PD who internally felt she was losing her emotional host (FoA) as I became increasingly skilled with the toolbox, I still had anxiety and physical changes associated with stress. Oh well, it's who I am. 

I hope you are better able to calm those feelings down in yourself. 

All the best,

SoT

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The most effective way I dealt with the stress on the level of palpitations was to go to the doctor and get a prescription for a beta blocker.

I only took it when I had heart-pounding levels of stress. Within 15 minutes it calms my heart down, which calms my breathing, and indirectly helps my mind to calm too.

Twice, I took one preemptively before having foreseen stressful conversations. Both times I found a significant added benefit: with my mind clearer, I did not fall into the traps I sometimes did while in fight-or-flight. I was able to parry every attempt to knock me down, and keep the conversation focused.

[MaxedOut]

Echoing prior, I take beta blockers and use mindfullness practices to work with/through.

I developed anxiety including occasional panic attacks during the marriage. My occasional heart palpitations got a lot worse the past couple of years.

It was also helpful to think through things. Like, OK what happens if "I want a divorce!!!" sticks? What happens when she goes very destabilized and angry - how long does that usually last, when is emotional or physical safety most important?

[NBRiverGuy]

Echoing prior, I take beta blockers and use mindfullness practices to work with/through.

I developed anxiety including occasional panic attacks during the marriage. My occasional heart palpitations got a lot worse the past couple of years.

It was also helpful to think through things. Like, OK what happens if "I want a divorce!!!" sticks? What happens when she goes very destabilized and angry - how long does that usually last, when is emotional or physical safety most important?

I get those heart palpitations so bad that I shake the bed. I haven't spoken to a doctor because they don't ever happen at the doctor's office.

[square]

I personally didn't have to prove my palpitations. I said "sometimes I get palpitations so bad I can't sleep. I wonder if a beta blocker would help?" and ten seconds later the script was sent to my pharmacy.

Worth asking.

They will assume you will take it daily but it appears "as needed" is perfectly fine, and it acts quickly when you take it.

[MaxedOut]

And, being 5 weeks out, I am experiencing much less. I've been taking beta blockers daily and may go beck to prn soon (I also have an ADHD drug so we'll see).