Tried sharing a bed again

[zad7242]

   My UBPDW and I have slept in separate rooms for about the last 12-18 months. A significant factor to this has been childcare of babies but our relationship issues are the underlying factor. My wife has always expressed sorrow over this arrangement, I feel emotional safety in it. So, two nights ago, my wife climbed into bed with me at 3am and pretty much announced she is tired of waking up alone etc. and she moved her stuff back into the room I sleep in the next day.

   Last night we tried our first night sleeping a full night together. I was anxious all day yesterday but knew it would be a huge fight if I expressed any reservations or my own feelings. Wife thinks I should be grateful and hopeful that we are trying to save our marriage by sharing a bed again. I appreciate this of course, but since she believes she is the only victim in our marriage, I am not entitled to have any mixed feelings about sharing a bed with her again.

   So, anyway, Last night we got into bed, turned the lights out and I cuddled her while also trying to go to sleep. After about 10-15 minutes she got angry, stormed back upstairs and we slept apart as usual. She texted me right after about how selfish I am, because I after a year apart in bed, I didn't try to be more physically affectionate/ with her. I should have been excited and again grateful that she was open to lying next to me, and instead I just wanted to go to sleep. My perspective was that I was trying to slowly rebuild that vulnerability and trust.

   Not sure if she will want to try again tonight.

[Deby64]

Zad, these confusing times are frustrating. Have you considered telling her that you were being sensitive to her needs by snuggling up and not doing more because you realize she is mentally exhausted. Remember it's all about them in their minds. Hope y'all's continue to focus on getting closer together with peace.
I do understand your frustration. It's like we have to be mind readers to keep the peace. For me I focus on peace and don't mind being the bigger person to keep it.

[zad7242]

Thank you Deby64,

She made it very clear that she wanted me to "do more" than just snuggle her and go right to bed. I really felt a need to "take it slow" and honestly in the moment thought she would be ok with that considering we haven't even been in bed together for over a year. When trying to tell her how exhausted I've been (taking care of a 2-year-old and 9-month-old throughout the nights, while studying for the bar exam and working part-time), she got really mad and said I am not too exhausted to show more affection to her at bedtime and that I've never worked a full day in my life etc etc. She does way more than me, but the difference is I never tell her she doesn't have a right to be tired.

I guess maybe the problem is lack of authenticity on my part. I tried using the upcoming bar exam and my tiredness as reasons for wanting to just go to sleep after our other 6 kids are asleep but in reality, the deeper reason is that being alone in bed is my respite, the only time other than when I'm at work that I generally feel emotionally safe from her. If I had told her that there would have been a big blow up but it's just a temporary fix as the blow up happens anyway eventually...

[square]

You shouldn't have to "use the upcoming bar exam" or come up with a carefully crafted argument or delicately balance every word or motion.

You were tired. Good enough.




Also, Deby, whose peace are you keeping?

[bloomie]

zad... what stands out to me in this is what seems to be the lack of respectful communication on your wife's part before getting in bed with you and moving her stuff into the room you have been sleeping in for a long while. I think I am understanding the sequence correctly?

Possibly, examine what you are engaging in and reinforcing. I have had to look at that closely in my own marriage because I was inadvertently reinforcing immature, unproductive, emotionally triggered communications by responding to them at all, or discussing the tearing down, competitive nonsense like:

she got really mad and said I am not too exhausted to show more affection to her at bedtime and that I've never worked a full day in my life etc etc.

You have the right to privacy in your own bedroom. You have the right to a respectful discussion asking if YOU are ready to share a room and if so, what that may entail instead of someone busting in and insisting on their own way and that you 'do more'.

You have no obligation to respond to disrespectful communications from anyone and by doing so, you may be reinforcing them. Just a thought.

Last night we tried our first night sleeping a full night together. I was anxious all day yesterday but knew it would be a huge fight if I expressed any reservations or my own feelings. Wife thinks I should be grateful and hopeful that we are trying to save our marriage by sharing a bed again. I appreciate this of course, but since she believes she is the only victim in our marriage, I am not entitled to have any mixed feelings about sharing a bed with her again.

How did avoiding a direct conversation around this and being honest you have mixed feelings about it in order to keep the peace go for you? We are called to be peacemakers, not peacekeepers at any cost because in my own very long marriage I can say that I have found there is always, and I mean always, a high price to pay when we attempt to manage the moods and reactions of another person by peacekeeping behaviors. 

[MaxedOut]

on Square's comment.

With my spouse, sometimes framing things in a mutual consent way, would help her shift out of control/self-focus mode (e.g., "I am not trying to control our communication. I was upset and needed some time to calm down and gather my thoughts. When you are not up for talking I don't want to make you talk. I know it can be frustrating in the moment but it should be something we both are ok to do."). She would sometimes try and flip things accusingly and with a more extreme characterization, which was also a good point to emphasize mutual consent ("How would you like it if I refused to talk to you!?!" "I don't want you to feel pressured to talk. I would want you to take the time and space you need.")

Bloomie is spot on, too. That's a more complicated conversational landscape. I found sometimes asking a few questions to better understand where my STBXUBPDW was coming from) instead of jumping to response helped. Sometimes that helped me understand the specific wants/purpose better (maybe opening up alternatives) or revealed it was actually about a core emotion not the thing being discussed (which could better be addressed directly).

[zad7242]

Yes, Bloomie you have the sequence correct.

Avoiding my feelings did not go well at all, as usual. If I don't say how I feel, my conscious or subconscious behaviors/reactions to her give it away sooner or later - usually ending up in even more hurt for her and then me. I know that's basic communication skills 101 

She felt justified in doing what she did because she is the victim, we sleep together again when she decides she feels it's safe or has forgiven me. For me to have feelings of my own would make her partially responsible for why we don't sleep together.

I'm thinking the better way to have handled it would have been to validate my wife's feelings and motivations for joining me in bed again, and then after a few hours gently offered what my concerns are rather then immediately throwing out a true but very incomplete reason (bar exam) for why I was worried about us sleeping together again.

[IsleOfSong]

I'm exhausted just reading about her antics. Who says she gets to decide everything? And she says you never worked a day in your life? Now there's an aphrodisiac.

Really sorry to hear you're enduring this, mostly because it sounds all too familiar with the dynamic in my own home. Like mine, yours is not a marriage, it's a tug of war. My hope is that you'll get to the point where you don't feel the urge to engineer just the right response to minimize her disappointment with you. Because it's not worth it, and it's not necessary. Square's succinct answer above spoke volumes. You were tired. Good enough.

If you're lucky, she'll give up on the idea of sharing a bed with you and you'll at least have 8 hours a night of peace.

[square]

My MIL has perfected an approach that always puts the other person on the back foot.  The onus is always on everyone else to convince her of something.  And if she doesn't want to be convinced, believe me, she won't, no matter how patently logical your explanation. 

This isn't reasonable.  In a court of law, the onus is on the prosecution for good reason.  In everyday life, it follows boundaries.

You don't have to have a perfect or even good argument to justify your boundaries. 

You also don't have to convince anyone for your boundaries to be valid. 

What I'm saying has no effect on your wife's thoughts or behavior.  But if you really grapple with this idea and come to feel truly confident in your bones that you have no burden to convince her of things that rightly belong to you, it can help set you at ease.  You can change your part of the dynamic by no longer being concerned about convincing them, even if they persist in their part of the dynamic.

Here are some things that rightly belong to you, regardless of whether your wife acknowledges them:

The right to your feelings about her proposed sleeping arrangement changes.

The right to decline the proposal or offer an alternative.

The right to a good night's sleep without undue interference from your wife.

The right to accept or decline invitations for intimacy.

The right to lack powers of mind reading.

The right to initiate mature communication to clarify her thoughts and/or yours.

To be clear, your wife has rights, too.  They include:

The right to propose changes to sleeping arrangements.  (Not dictate.)

The right to initiate intimacy.  (Not to force or punish if it is declined.)

The right to maturely communicate her thoughts and feelings.  (Not to use tactics to force your compliance, such as emotional explosions, insults, punishments, etc.).

[zad7242]

Thank you square, that is very validating and a practical list to keep in my mind. My biggest trouble has been trusting my own judgement of the reality of my relationship. I am constantly questioning myself and looking for new data points to either confirm what my mind/emotions/soul tell me about my relationship with my wife or to convince me I'm the one with the problem. But no amount of "evidence" is ever good enough for me. The questioning of myself is always there, especially when she does act in some genuinely loving way, its easy to forget the bad stuff.

As a small update, we did share a bed together last night, really without any further discussion or validation of my apprehensions. I initiated some cuddling, kissing etc, which I knew she would want and expect, it went well overall in that after a few minutes she said good night and we had a relatively good night of sleep- considering there was a 9 month old baby in our room. My prediction is that if I sort of give her what she wants it will go well for a week or so, before problems start again. Kind of doing an experiment to prove even if I do what she wants by initiating intimacy and welcoming her into bed with me again, eventually the goal posts will be moved again.

[square]

My biggest trouble has been trusting my own judgement of the reality of my relationship. I am constantly questioning myself and looking for new data points to either confirm what my mind/emotions/soul tell me about my relationship with my wife or to convince me I'm the one with the problem. But no amount of "evidence" is ever good enough for me.

I can relate to this style of thinking. I think it can sometimes be caused by low confidence due to upbringing. But honestly I think it is often a normal and healthy personality type, that is open-minded and logical. Being open minded means you rarely close the book on anything, that you are open to new data points to add to your framework. Having a very nice layer of humility means you are open to checking yourself. And being logical, you try to figure out how it all works in a sensible way.

I don't know if that describes your inner world, but if it does, you're not broken - you just have certain traits that can be weaponized by certain types of people.

One thing you can do is step up on the logic by counter-checking your wife's behaviors instead of just your own. PDs are terrific at shining the spotlight on us, and we get caught up in looking at what they want you to look at. But you can choose to look behind the curtain. It's logical to do so. We've examined what's in the spotlight well enough, and even if we don't reach any certain conclusions, we will learn more by turning our attention to other data points.

Such as:

What do they not want us to see or question?

Would I feel comfortable behaving the way they are right now?

Habe they applied the same standards to themselves?

Are they a good role model that I want to emulate? Do I want to take their advice?

What makes them more knowledgable than me on this subject, or in general?

Does their input align with the input I get from other sources? Other sources that I trust?

Have THEY convinced ME on this subject?

Is she spending a similar amount of effort on my needs and happiness? Is there a balance here?

Do I want to abandon logic? Is that a value I would like to pursue?

[Rebel13]

My biggest trouble has been trusting my own judgement of the reality of my relationship. I am constantly questioning myself and looking for new data points to either confirm what my mind/emotions/soul tell me about my relationship with my wife or to convince me I'm the one with the problem. But no amount of "evidence" is ever good enough for me.

I'm so familiar with this! If it's truly a cognitive process (vs being tense and stressed physically) you might be able to talk back to it. People have made some great suggestions here.  "I don't have to justify myself." "I get to do ___ because I want to or because that's what feels right to me." "I'm allowed to honor my feelings, even if other people don't agree, as long as I'm not harming them." There are also mindfulness and thought-stopping techniques that help with this for some people.

[Deby64]

Squar, to answer your question. It's my peace above all things. I've learned that every action doesn't require a response. In being still and knowing This Too Shall Pass, I've found peace. My feelings aren't facts and I don't have to react to my feelings. If my H throws a fit and hurts my feelings and I don't respond because the facts are that's his stuff. I have peace within myself. I've noticed over multiple years of marriage that feeling can drain me,when I give them too much attention. Focus on facts and truth and there is peace for me. Letting him rent space in my head by holding hurt feelings is like allowing him to be my God. Facts; I have personal boundaries and if I'm tired, I'm tired. What's understood within myself doesn't need to be explained. Peace

[square]

I agree, Deby.

But there is a nuance between that and continually folding oneself to be smaller and smaller. Eventually that becomes unmanagable.

Just as long as you're doing the former and not the latter.

[Deby64]

Square your so right. Huge nuances. That's why this site is so important for me. If his words or behavior start to make me feel smaller. I get the support and strength I need from this family and pull myself out without needing affirmation from him Thanks for your support.

[SonofThunder]

So, two nights ago, my wife climbed into bed with me at 3am and pretty much announced she is tired of waking up alone etc.

Been there plenty. Note the time. I kept a journal over the many years and the developed pattern of my PDw waking me up well after I went to bed to test me in some manner (overt and covert), was telling.  Ime a control feed whose intent is rigid compliance or victimhood.  Either result was a self-designed trophy for my wife. 

At the front end of this occurring, those late night incidents seemed emotionally complicated and would trigger an emotion-energy response from me at the time of being awoken and then afterward as well, causing a return to sleep difficult while my body-clock is ticking toward the awake hour.  Eventually, that pattern over the years (with various subject matters presented) taught me it was not at all complicated, but just designed abuse through purposeful sleep deprivation. 

Motive is everything. 

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/sleep-deprivation

SoT

[MaxedOut]

SoT, I can relate. Though the frequency/intensity/types of interuptions varied over our years together, sleep/bed/naps were an area of PD behaviors/outbursts for me too, unfortunately. Before we lived together, it was largely about entitlement to space/covers with stuff like a hard shove by an elbow enforcing limits. We joked that the nightstand was where I slept. It also included trauma reactions that could be pretty bracing like yelling in fear from me being there and one occasssion when I was struck hard in the chest from a fear reaction. The next morning she wondered why the side of her hand was sore.

We got a king size bed when we moved in together, which gave me space to sleep. During a major manic/mixed episode years ago, there were multiple nights when she would come in the bedroom after I had gone to bed and flip out about not seeing her pillows, sheets/covers not being what she wanted etc. On a couple of occassions she abruptly pulled all covers and sheets off of the bed and me in anger-that felt totally vulnerable and violent. Other times she would "test" if I was in bed by whapping the pillow/blankets to "check" if I was under there.

I later years, there were times she'd come to bed and quickly get dysregulated and angry, often prompting me to leave the bedroom. And angry about pillows/covers. Note: I don't move these, I'm a super still sleeper but I am also not going to untangle the mess on her side of the bed daily to make the bed (I'd strighten my side and make my bed typically when it is just me). The bigger issue though was interrupting sleep, usually in the morning or if I was trying to nap. It would either be coming in hot or texting or yelling from another room for some "crisis" needing my attention ASAP. I know she was aware of some of how that affected me; besides me bringing it up, she would say she'd been trying to let me sleep/control the impulse to wake me up at times, unpromted. I think it was sometimes simply impuse control and her having a hard time self-soothing. Other times it was clearly about anger and feeling entitled to engage with me about that. Occassionally it seemed like the main purpose was punishment.

Besides sleep deprivation and sometimes accompanyment of other behaviors that were abusive on their own, this made bed and sleep a mixed thing for me, not an enjoyed place and part of life. I noticed that times when I'd leave the house in conflict for a hotel, or have solo travel, how much more relaxed and safe it felt sleeping on my own and without an unpredictably volatile person around. Even at times when she wasn't really acting out and things were good, my nervous system knew that could change on a dime. So many times, just hearing her moving in another area of the house, especially if coming closer, would send my heart hammering instantly. Often it would be one of the cats going on alert before I heard something. Hypervigilance, man, even long stretches of peace are not really peaceful. A really striking point of me realizing the overall toll of all this was an unexpected hospitalization. I was in a pretty nice facility for a few days and set to either be released or held another night. The context meant my wife had been kind and caring and focused on me for several days, which felt really nice. The nights were not great rest, of course, but pretty good for a hospital and that safety thing. I remember hoping they would keep me another night... Hard realization, that one.

Another pivot point for me was a few years ago when she was angry waking up/in the morning. The vibe/mood would 100% normally have been followed by her stomping off, banging cabinets, yanking the fridge open and slamming it shut, probably tossing dishes in the sink-maybe with breakage, "spilling" coffee grounds/coffee around the sink/counters/backsplash when making coffee. But... a family member was staying over. She instead had a pretty normal start to the day in behaviors. I realized that morning moreso than I had really understood before that the outbursts/abusive stuff was something she could control way more than I thought. And she felt it wasn't OK to do around a close family member. Ergo, it is OK to subject me to that. A couple years later, this defintiely came to mind in reading about abuse behaviors (I didnt really think of them that way at the time, more as mental health issues). A number of the common texts repeatedly bring up the difference between behaviors that go on behind closed doors and those the person will do in front of others. In my spouse's case, I think some is about maintaining a mask with a lot of effort in public and what leaks through (much more in the last two years, it would turn out) rather than a more intentionally public/private persona crafting.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

So much good stuff shared here!  Square, I love your lists!

Regarding the self-doubt, not sure enough you're being reasonable, not confident that the boundaries you want to set are totally appropriate (if I get the gist here) ... I've been the queen of all that but have found something that helps move me in a good direction. 

Kind of "act as if."  When I take the action I would take if I had a decent amount of self confidence, I am not only giving the other person the message that I deserve equal consideration, I am also giving myself that message.  And I feel different, more confident, more self-respecting.  If I set the boundaries a person who expects to have a reciprocal relationship would set, I start feeling more like I deserve that. It helps reset my relationship with myself.

There is a 12 step quote something like this:  "We don't think our way into right action.  We act our way into right thinking."  It does seem to work that way for me.

[Rebel13]

Hi zad, I just came across this article wherein Captain Awkward responds to a letter about similar relationship dynamics in the context of someone constantly questioning themselves, like you mentioned above. I thought it might be interesting for you.

https://captainawkward.com/2025/01/02/1453-is-my-adhd-ruining-my-relationship-or-am-i-just-with-the-wrong-person-for-me/

[MaxedOut]

Great site, Rebel. I hadn't seen it before. This post hits home a lot: https://captainawkward.com/2024/07/15/1436-why-do-abusers-take-your-stuff/. It's about things, but really about all this stuff (bullying, entitlement, testing, lose-lose, control).