I keep feeling I’m at fault and I can’t shake it

[Prototypian]

My spouse has OCPD.   It's severe and undiagnosed and part of a pattern that is always there.

As I look back on 33 years of marriage with the mess, the hoarding, the anger that verges on violence, the insistence that all things wait to be done right, and the changes in my behavior that I've covered up to comply with her inflexible goals.

I read an article yesterday about how men in marriages are at fault for their wives not having an interest in intimacy for not taking care of housework or not sharing in the kids.   But I know for a fact that she has never had any interest in intimacy from our first 5 years of marriage sleeping in separate beds because she was uncomfortable with sharing space or deciding to have kids in vitro despite me mot having any problems that I know of as a father.   She is so angry and against any hugs, hand holding, or anything like that that I just can't see what I could have done over 30 plus years.   The kids even complain that their mother won't hug them.

Our finances are beyond solid; my career is fortunate for all of us kids and family and homes and life.   She has never had to work and I don't care about sharing the load or not.   As she is OCpd I am on the spectrum in the way that technology nerds make lots of money naturally.   I also religiously keep my body in shape with daily workouts that I never miss.   I just always dreamed of being happy.   Having the money, time and fitness to go skiing is something I love.  She sees my participation in that as some sort of flaunting of riches against all those who can't afford to take their kids skiing at spring break.  Believe me it's not because she is concerned about finances, it's because she sees that so many people can't afford it so why are we trying to show off.   

Sometimes I like to stop at independent coffee shops and have a cup of coffee.   I have offices in another part of the city and sometimes like to sit on conference calls outside of the office with AirPods and enjoy coffee.   It's bizarre that any time this happens there is an instant Call to me from her absolutely concerted that "did you go to xyz coffee?...". When I confirm I hear don't they have coffee at your office?   

And what I hear from my therapist is that I have the choice to leave.  I get that. Is this alll my fault or partly or just a loss of 30 plus years due to a bad decision?   

Fear is my number one reason for not setting boundaries.  Imagine that you choose to take an old shirt of yours to goodwill and drop it and not even co sided the implications of that.   And imagine that your spouse doesn't just get frustrated, they get violently angry raising the conflict level to an extreme amount when you refuse to engage or answer their questions.  And imagine that this anger over something as small as a donated shirt or a fork in the spoon slot in the drawer is so angry and such as slight that it will be a grievance even years later as a specific point of something you personally did that was a vile act against her personally.

I know I should have left but I kept imagining that this wasn't even real.   It was so shocking and surprising all the time.

I just can't escape the idea that I'm at fault.

[Poison Ivy]

I don't think you're at fault. I do agree with your therapist: You have the choice to leave.

[square]

This isn't your fault, hon. I'm no doctor but your wife is clearly mentally ill. That causes all sorts of complications. And it directly affects her judgement, so you can't take her perspective without question.

Your desire to be happy and enjoy life and go skiing and cuddle with and make love to your wife is all totally normal. It's your wife's mental illness that is warping things.

Forget the article you read about marriage. It doesn't apply to you.

She doesn't value skiing, so she dismisses it for you. But her perspective is wrong. The fact is, she has dedicated her life to unpaid work, which could be seen as flaunting her riches and her privilege to work unpaid due to your high earning. So it's bunk. If she cared about skiing it would be fine in her mind. You are allowed to enjoy skiing and to value it more than she does. She's not the moral arbiter of the world.

You're allowed to enjoy the experience of a coffee that is different from what's provided at the office. Her priorities are not more correct than yours. She has made many, many questionable and outright terrible choices that have harmed her husband, her children, and others. Her judgement of your coffee is bunk.

[square]

Leaving or not leaving or something in between (as I have done - moved out but not divorced) is up to you. But don't stay due to the sunk cost fallacy. It's not going to get better. You could have a future where you can throw your stuff away, go skiing, load the dishwasher, mow the lawn, and enjoy a coffee. You don't even have to divorce to do it, you could just separate, live in the house you set up, and get your own credit card and bank account.

I also am weak to fear, and I have figured out at least part of why. I have a rare medical condition where I react almost like an allergy to many things. Among my triggers is stress. So when H yells at me, I literally get low blood pressure and other symptoms that make me feel very unwell for about a day. I've even collapsed before, and I am NOT a dramatic person.

You are on the spectrum, which means you have certain sensory sensitivities. Anybody would be disturbed by your wife's explosions, but you are particularly sensitive. So you have real reason to try to stave off these explosions, just so you can keep yourself in one piece and function.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[SeaBreeze]

That article does not sound like it applies to your marriage. It certainly would have applied to mine, but not yours.

One of my final eye-opening debates with ex-uNPDh, a few months before I left, was over the fact that I ordered a cheeseburger pizza with, guess what, beef on it. You know, the burger part of said cheeseburger pizza. (This is a special recipe with pickles and thousand island sauce, not just cheese and beef.) In the past, ex-H requested said flavor of pizza minus meat, which the pizza place was a bit confused by but they honored our request. So this time, the kids and I wanted actual cheeseburger pizza. I had offered to order H a different pizza, but he said he didn't want any. It took an act of courage for me to order the pizza the way I wanted it...as in the original restaurant recipe. So of course, even though he "didn't want any" and even though I paid for it and picked it up, then-H proceeded, in all seriousness, to lecture me and guilt-trip me on how he couldn't believe I ordered cheeseburger pizza with beef! The audacity, what was wrong with me! I caught myself about to defend myself?! Then it struck me how ridiculous his argument was! I calmly stated "It's supposed to have beef. You are the weirdo here, not me." Well he was simply stunned into silence, while I simply cleaned up after eating my pizza and then walked away.

Just an example of how we can get so used to pandering to our PDs expectations that we forget what's normal and what's not! If you want coffee at a certain place, it's not a NATO summit. It's a cup of coffee. Enjoy it, savor it, just...drink it. Little moments of normalcy for yourself can go a long way in overcoming the guilt you are feeling and clear your perspective.

[SonofThunder]

"Fear is my number one reason..."

I believe all of us that stay(ed) with a PD abuser benefit from boiling down to the true foundational subject of our fear.  I do believe there's a tendency to create reasons to stay that really are just kicking those true fears down the road a little bit further.  Each time we approach the truth, we kick once again.

I kicked mine further for a long time too, but I finally held onto my fears, faced them squarely and stopped kicking.  Patterns evolve from repetition and therefore can become obvious, but the unknowns in the true fear remain a daunting hurdle.

SoT

[Breadroll]

There's something a therapist asked me-  if a friend, or your child described this same situation to you, what would you advise?

Helps you to see your situation from the outside.

Skiing, coffee and peace sound great

[Prototypian]

Yes.  I have had the same question asked.   I would expect my own kids to choose their happiness.   It's just so hard to not feel selfish about choosing mine.

[square]

What would happen, or what do you feel would happen, if you made a move toward pursuing your own happiness?

Not a rhetorical question.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I think the "maybe I'm being too selfish" feeling is part of what PD caretakers often feel.  Hence the popularity of the Stop Caretaking book and the idea for the 51% rule.

Fear can be paralyzing but for me feelings of obligation are even worse.  It took me forever to even have the idea dawn on me that just because someone felt entitled to dump their rage and belittling on me didn't mean I had to stand there and listen to it. Now I hang up or leave immediately, for as long as it takes.  And if it starts up again when I return, I leave again.  It hasn't happened in a long time.  (Though other obnoxious behaviors do. )

It sounds like your wife feels very entitled to spew out her rage at you, to control your behavior to her standards, and to make all the rules of the relationship.  And feels you are under a complete obligation to listen and to comply.  That's part and parcel of having a PD.

I've found it's possible have an intellectual belief that I'm entitled to equality and respect and still feel, deep down, an obligation to comply.  It can be very hard to overrule those deep down feelings.  Thank goodness for resources like this and therapy!  Healing for us, even if only a baby step at a time.

[Prototypian]

What stuns me most about dealing with her is that growing up, living, being a person and becoming who I was didn't have many people at all who were willing to take a line of zero tolerance and internally be committed to that over things that didn't seem to even be of consequence.   No one has a perfect upbringing but my life and family just didn't have concerns that bordered on fanaticism about cleaning, how dish towels were hung, where the trash cans were in reference to the curb and more. 

One of my sisters had a bunch of stuffed animals and liked them arranged a certain way on her bed but that was her little comfort thing as a kid.   This is anger that the trash cans might not be between "6 and 12 inches from the curb" which is what the city info says.   In truth I bet the "guidelines" for the city were written so that people didn't leave them in hard to reach places and then expect the garbage collectors to get them.   I don't think the civil service people are actually measuring that total and ensuring that people are exactly between 6 and 12 inches.   But it's that type of thing that blows her up.   My friends and I work out and we jog one day a week typically at 5 am.   There are signs that say "respect other runners and riders, ride and jog single file".  I think that loosely interpreted that sign is so that big clumps of people don't leave room for people to pass who are traveling faster on the jog/bike paths.   She is so concerned that the five of us jog in a group and don't worry about the order or shape.   We almost never encounter anyone else since it's 5 am. But she is angry at me for not being concerned. Physically and emotionally angry creating hyperbolic statements like "so you and your friends don't have to follow the rules, I suppose yall would consider just stealing books from the library or breaking into a bank".  My answer is no and how could the two scenarios be linked to jogging in a group past signs that say "dogs on leashes" "don't throw trash on the path" and "respect other riders and runners, ride or jog single file".  I'd be willing to ignore it and just tell her to deal but it's every time I go out and it's serious that she is angry about this.   We literally just run two miles out and back and of the few other people out we just say hi and jog past.   No one except possibly a cyclist coming behind us saying "on your left" with a ding of their bell has ever complained and I don't think anyone ever would.   But the anger about this rule breaking is enough to cause a shunning of me and a constant wedge of emotional hatred for me jogging with a group of dads who met when our respective kids were in elementary school.   

This is where I don't see how boundaries can help.   I can say "don't treat me that way" but her anger which borders on loathing is true about this rule breach.   I know that some spouses get upset that their spouse drinks too much or smokes or gambles or uses curse words in public and they don't like that behavior.  I see this as different.   This is like you would prefer that your spouse back their car into parking spaces and they won't.  But instead of just dealing with it you will be angry to the point that you carry the resentment and anger with you forever never letting it go and bringing it up anytime that the other appears to be enjoying themselves. 

Thats where I wonder if I made a huge mistake in just staying.  Because I can't control her but in this case saying "I can't control her thoughts and actions" leads to her being violently angry at me over things that don't really matter to most. Assuming that someone cared about a group of adult guys jogging at 5 am on a public jogging trail, is there even a likelihood that parks and rec or police would even care what we do and stop us to inform us we aren't jogging in a single file line?   If that's normal, is this other way just completely wrong?

[Poison Ivy]

A boundary is intended to protect you from another person's behavior. In your situation, physically distancing yourself via divorce or legal separation might be the only effective boundary.

[SonofThunder]

" Thats where I wonder if I made a huge mistake in just staying."

Fortunately for you, that statement is about the past.  Imo, the present and future is really about your previous statement, "Fear is my number one reason..."

SoT

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Is this..just a loss of 30 plus years due to a bad decision?  I wonder if I made a huge mistake in just staying.

This is a hard part of coming Out of the FOG.  We had reasons for staying all those years, even if we weren't aware of them. It made sense at the time.  As the FOG lifts, it starts looking different and often those reasons no longer seem valid.   It can be a pretty disturbing realization considering it's been such a major life investment.

I don't know if this is what's happening for you, but if it is, many of us understand.  We went from being dedicated enablers and caretakers to questioning.  Then some of us decided to leave.  I don't know if everyone goes through significant feelings of loss after realizing they spent decades of their life in a way they no longer value.  I have, and still do.  But the process has been worth it in order to take my life back, even if I'm not young anymore. I'm not totally free of PDs.  But I no longer have a tyrant living under my roof and my life and choices belong to me.

[TimetoHeal]

You've gotten a lot of great advice already.   

I wonder if an Information Diet with your wife would be helpful, at least in short term?  That's where you don't tell her any more than she absolutely needs to know, and nothing about topics that you know will set her off.  For example, does she need to know where you had coffee?  That you and your friends don't strictly adhere to 1 in a line street rules?  How would she know if you don't tell her? 

[Rebel13]

It's just so hard to not feel selfish about choosing mine.

What's wrong with being selfish? Only kind of rhetorical. "Selfish" was the critique my mom used on me anytime I expressed a desire or preference that differed from hers. I had shame about that for a long time, but my adult behavior has demonstrated that she was categorically wrong. I'm not a selfish person, I'm actually quite a loving and giving person to those in my life who reciprocate and treat me well. As a human, I get to prioritize my own needs and wants when I decide that's appropriate and fits with my values. It DOES feel weird after being denied the opportunity to do so for a long time, but that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. You sound like you have been very generous with your family, providing resources for them to have a secure and comfortable life, and in your wife's case, to shape her work in the way that suits her.

This is where I don't see how boundaries can help.   I can say "don't treat me that way" but her anger which borders on loathing is true about this rule breach.   

The boundary isn't "don't treat me that way" because you're right, you don't control her behavior. The boundary is "if this, then that."  "If you are expressing extreme loathing towards me, I will leave your presence." "When you interrogate me about where I got my coffee, I will not reply, and if you continue, I will leave your presence." (Do you see a theme developing here?    ) Etc. "That" is something that you DO have control of -- your words, your behavior. "That" is something that will protect you from abuse and unpleasantness and stress. Sometimes, some people might ALSO learn that "that" is a consequence of certain actions of theirs, and if they dislike "that" enough, they might change. But I wouldn't count on it. Change what you can control, what you are in charge of, to remove as much abuse and unpleasantness from your experience as you possibly can. You have that right.

[JustKeepTrying]

Jsinjin

The hardest thing I ever did was leaving after 32 years of marriage. It was all I knew. I felt so afraid and angry. At myself and at my ex. Felt like I waisted so much of my life. I look back at all those points in time where I considered leaving and didn't have the courage to leave.

Something I have to remind myself is that I didn't know. I didn't know what narcissistic PD was - or gaslighting - I didn't have the language to label what I felt was wrong. And the chaos that he brought home every day didn't leave me with time to figure it out or think it through. Looking back - it was this community and a diagnosis of PTSD that gave me the courage to leave. Stepping of the fog and seeing him for what he is. And knowing that I did my best. 32 years is a long marriage. Nothing to feel ashamed about - I tried.

While I struggle still, life on the other side is so much better. More peaceful. My life is filled now with what I want in it - and that is worth everything.

You have been such a good friend on here to me - I hope you find your peace as well

[Prototypian]

Jsinjin

The hardest thing I ever did was leaving after 32 years of marriage. It was all I knew. I felt so afraid and angry. At myself and at my ex. Felt like I waisted so much of my life. I look back at all those points in time where I considered leaving and didn't have the courage to leave.

Thank you for that, JKT.  What were your internal thoughts and feelings on the way that you worked through fear about impact to your family friends and even spouse and obligation and guilt?   I feel like if I leave then I'll be one of those husbands who leaves a wife and then as she ages her kids have to deal with her support and life.   I'm so conflicted

[JustKeepTrying]

I am so sorry you are going through this. Let me rephrase so that I understand your question, you asking how I processed my feelings and fear while understanding the impact of the divorce?

What a big question and a difficult one to answer.

I did have moments where I thought it was my duty to manage my ex and not leave him to my kids. For better or worse and all of that. I was also deeply afraid of facing the world admitting my own failings. That I didn't leave when I should have.

It was several things actually. I realized that he knew what he was doing. Yes he was sick and diagnosed with a PD. But he also had moments of lucidity when he was a wonderful man. It was then that I knew it was a manipulation all designed to keep me off kilter and keep his comfort. To the point that I was being mentally damaged and physically hurt. A part of me turned very cold and I realized that he didn't enter the marriage in good faith and I was more beholden to surviving and saving my son than keeping him protected.

Yes he leans on his kids - or he did for years after. And I worried that he would take advantage of them. But they are grown and all I could do is encourage them to seek counseling. Recently, I have heard several comments about their dad that lead me to believe they are seeing him for who is - and not catering to him. He is capable of paying the bills; holding down a job and living a life. Does he hoard boxes and not clean his house? Sure. But that is no longer my problem. Nor is it the kids.

Every day I have to remind myself that I am worthy of peace and love. Every day hour and sometimes minutes. I fight those internalized thoughts that have developed over decades of abuse. There are some thoughts that I didn't even know were a result of it all. But I stayed out of fear and once I face it - it was easy.

I hope this helps. If not, I can try again.