Should I decide on one approach?

[walking on broken glass]

I was talking with my therapist about how when I am to confront/ push back against people I have two voices in my head: one that knows exactly what I want to say and is very direct and another one that tempers the first one, and urges me to phrase things in a more roundabout, moderate way. Sometimes the direct voice only comes up later, after the event, when I think 'this is what I should have said'. We were discussing this in relation to my relationship with my mum and how, historically, I have used the roundabout approach with my family. However, lately I have been losing my patience with this veneer of fakeness and I have been wanting to do things in a more transparent, direct way. The problem is that I still hesitate between the two options, and I am not sure which is the best one. For instance, I don't want my mum to know my whereabouts, so when I call her I avoid mentioning anything about me, but when she asks me 'how's the weather in X?' I can't just evade the question so my choices are to either reply truthfully (I am not in X but in Z, and yes the weather is fine) or respond as if I were indeed where she thinks I am (i.e. lie). The second option allows me to protect my privacy and doesn't give her any ammunition but it involves a lot of mental gymnastics, i.e. having to lie to other family members too, keeping track of different time zones, making sure when I videocall nothing in the background betrays where I am etc. The first option would free up this space in my head but it might incur problems in the long run or it might lead to a confrontation.

I had started implementing the first course of action but then I switched to the second as a way of self protection. However I am not satisfied with it. I feel like going backwards, as if I were a teenager again, hiding things from my parents and constantly having the fear I might be found out. But then again, being in touch with my mum at least twice a week makes it impossible to both be truthful and keep my life fully private. So maybe instead of lying about various things, should I simply reduce the frequency of the calls?

The therapist said it would help if I decided which one is the approach that I value more and I want as default because it would save me all this internal deliberation I go through every time.

[treesgrowslowly]

I wonder if these problems are because we are trying to avoid being gaslit by our own parent.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

I think I know what you mean, trees, but would you mind expanding a bit on this?

[blunk]

when she asks me 'how's the weather in X?' I can't just evade the question so my choices are to either reply truthfully (I am not in X but in Z, and yes the weather is fine) or respond as if I were indeed where she thinks I am (i.e. lie).

Would it be possible for you to answer something like - I hear it's fine, but I'm not in X right now, and then just not include any further information as to where you are? I obviously don't know your mother, so I am not sure if this would bring on further questioning. But in keeping your answer vague, you keep her from knowing if you are just out for the day, or if you have moved away. You protect your location, and no need to lie. Again, I'm not sure if it would work in your situation, but with PDs in general the less info you give them the better.

[DaisyGirl77]

I was talking with my therapist about how when I am to confront/ push back against people I have two voices in my head: one that knows exactly what I want to say and is very direct and another one that tempers the first one, and urges me to phrase things in a more roundabout, moderate way. Sometimes the direct voice only comes up later, after the event, when I think 'this is what I should have said'.

I can painfully relate to all of this.  My other language ("Elvish") & its associated culture is very, very direct, so I struggle between the two extremes.  It's such a pain.  I wish I could just rip the bandage off & just be direct all the time, but that'd result in hurt feelings (although I'd be relieved not having to filter stuff, LOL).  Other times I'm too moderate & my point gets lost because I'm putting so much effort into being diplomatic.

As far as the rest, I wonder if you can reframe your perception of "lying" to your family to "protecting your peace".  Do whichever makes it peaceful for your life.  If it happens to be "The weather in X is dreadful/sunny/whatever", say that.  If it happens to bring you more peace to say, "I'm not in X right now so I don't know.  I'm out & about." do that, too.  I don't think rigidity would serve you well here.  As in many areas of life, moderation in whatever method you choose is the most appropriate.  If it brings you peace to refuse video calls for a while because you suddenly have a stomach bug every time they call & you're in the bathroom (wink wink, nudge nudge, lol), then so be it.

Be kind to yourself first & foremost.

[Prototypian]

Hmmm. 

My counselor and a lot of programs in my work have all sort of communicated that direct and simple is the best way to communicate difficult topics and boundaries.   Whether it's a discussion with a family member or a difficult coworker, the important part of the crucial conversation is the simple delivery of the specifics.   

It doesn't help anyone especially you to be passive aggressive or just passive when a true message needs to be delivered.  That combined with medium chill is what I feel is best.  Of course a PD person may not like this delivery so you would need to prepare for that irrational behavior and remain calm.

Just my thoughts. 

[notrightinthehead]

Freedom would lie in being authenic. That means you could allow yourself to be open and truthful about where you are and not care a bit about what your mother thinks or says to that.

You might be in this quandry because you actually wanted to go NC with your mother, now feel obliged to have twice weekly contact with her. You don't want to share details of your life with her and feel obliged to do so anyway.

The net that traps us with a PD person - fear, obligation, guilt - seems to have you firmly in it's grip. How can you change your behaviour so that you can break the strings that bind you?

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi WOBG,

In the years before I went NC, I had those phone calls. I couldn't provide details about my life because it wasn't safe to do so. When I was evasive, I was told there was something wrong with me. Which is what gaslighting is. It's really effective because the parent can make a big drama over her kid not telling her where she is or what she's doing on the weekend, or who she's friends with, etc..

The PD parent gets believed, that they are the victim, because how "dare" WOGB or Trees not tell them such things right? The average person will think there is something wrong with you, for not wanting to tell her those details. Once we're at that point where we don't want to tell them the truth and we don't want to lie either, we have to figure out what other options are there when we end up on the phone with them.

Trees

[Pinkos]

This is something I struggle with daily! I have to constantly go against my instinct and be more circumspect. It comes from years of being gaslit by family and being made to feel like my feelings/perspective are just wrong and/or mean. So now in my day to day life, I feel like if I'm direct I will be met with swift punishment of some kind. Or people will avoid me in the future etc.

In my experience, most people are passive aggressive. So I'm constantly in these obnoxious dynamics with people that irritate me to no end. There are a lot of disordered/immature people out there so if you're more emotionally intelligent and afraid to be direct you will feel drained by people. This is just my experience though.  I'm NC with my FOO because I wanted to avoid this constant power struggle. I saw no value to maintaining the relationship. It was just an emotional drain.

I agree with others who have said being authentic and leading with your values is the way to go. It's something I need to work on a lot. I also agree with the comment that you want to go NC perhaps but you feel obligated to maintain contact so now you're in this weird no man's land. It's uncomfortable. I've been there and finally made the tough choice to just go NC. 

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you all so much!
Not right in the head, Pinkos and Trees, you are all absolutely right that I would want to be NC but feel I should (here's the FOG!) make the phone calls.
I can't see a third option other than NC. I already know this because I have been through this with my PD sister. I went from low contact to very low contact to no contact. All stages before NC were unsatisfactory and I now know that NC is the right option for me. But I find the decision so much more difficult when it comes to my mum. It's all rather new and recent and I haven't fully digested it yet. I sometimes think I should have reacted as soon as she accused me of all those horrible things and cut off contact on the spot. This is what my gut was telling me then and this is exactly what I said to her: if you believe all those horrible things about me, I can never come and see you again. But I was so dazed and confused that I had to press pause and think about all this. And thinking meant not making any rush decisions but essentially doing medium chill.

I get this ridiculous feeling that if I go NC now, it will look completely out of place, like a delayed response. And I also know I will be accused of abandoning my very ill mother. And I am thinking of all the repercussions, other family members that I may not be able to see anymore and the holiday home where I spent all my summers since I was 12 that I won't be able to visit anymore. And I can't help thinking that my sister will have won and her triumph will be complete. She has always wanted me ostracised. She will rejoice in my scapegoating.

[treesgrowslowly]

I get it. I went NC, and so with that, went all that you speak about. The visits with other family members, and access to your holiday home. From what I learned, it is why a lot of people do not go NC like I did. Losing all your relationships with your family members is really really hard.

I can see why some people try to stay in contact, with the phone calls. I can also understand those of us who go NC. There's a lot more information out there today, to help people to see that managing their parent is not a bad thing, it is what is called for when the parent is immature. Because that emotional immaturity is never going to change.

So if you want to stay in contact, you need to know that the way you approach it, isn't wrong, it is what you are doing to keep things going for now. When I went NC, no one was talking about why the phone calls to an immature parent were so hard on the adult child. We know a lot more about gaslighting now, and how it works and what to do with the people who use it.

Trees

[moglow]

For what it's worth - if you have to lie/not be yourself in order to have contact, what are you gaining from it? Who and what purpose is it serving? You mentioned having to hedge background, time zones etc so they don't know where you are - you can't be yourself. I would find that more stressful than just putting it out there honestly and letting them be mad. I'm not saying share all the things they can't be trusted with, but just not trying to appease them with other things to get by. As mentioned above, you can't be authentic - so what do you have? And what would you actually lose by refusing to do that anymore?

Maybe ease into it, mention that you moved/are moving/don't live there anymore then change the subject. Don't let it be one a big deal "oh I thought I told you" then carry on with the conversation. Don't take the bait or let it be an issue. As my brother says, they can't get your goat if they don't know where it is.

[Pinkos]

Going NC is tough!

But @moglow basically nailed why I went NC. It was stressful and there was no value to low contact because they were angry at my efforts to keep them at arms length, and would behave in passive aggressive or retaliatory ways. The dread whenever they called and I didn't want to answer! Ugh. Then trying to figure out when to call back. And having to hear their complaints that I took too long etc etc. It was all just draining! There was no way to honor myself and maintain contact. I even tried to do maybe 3-4 calls a year and got so much pressure to "go back to the way things were" that I had to bail. Once I stop answering their calls every week or 2 weeks they withdraw and stop calling. And I've sometimes just had to block them to stop the pressure mounting. Basically the underlying message I perceived was it's our way or the highway. So I hit the road.

Reading this to myself - it sounds mean. But these people have zero interest in me. They don't love me. I honestly feel like they hate me sometimes. They make me feel worthless. And it's sad to maintain regular contact with parents who are so disconnected from you and don't give a rat's behind about you. Maybe you understand what I mean? And when you see it from your perspective, it's not so mean anymore, right?

But I tried, man. I really tried! And I wanted to be able to say that to myself. So maybe you need to try and try some more before you get there? Or maybe not. And if not, it's OK too. Give yourself some grace.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Well, and when you're dealing with people whose response to a family member withdrawing from them is to just get meaner and crazier, there's only one direction that relationship can really go. 
 


The dramatic increase in problematic behavior in response to me saying they were really hurting me is what did it for me. They'd rather double down and rage and make every bit of contact more and more miserable rather than take the slightest bit of responsibility for the problems in our relationship. There's no coming back from that.

[walking on broken glass]

So maybe you need to try and try some more before you get there?

I think this is exactly it, Pinkos!

I would find that more stressful than just putting it out there honestly and letting them be mad.

That's absolutely true.

I think sometimes I am wishing that my mum let go of her guard and her pretence, and showed more her true colours, because in my head such a behaviour would justify my cutting off contact. I get the feeling 'this is not too bad, you are being unreasonable', even though I know that there is no such thing as a grand jury consensus on how bad is too bad.

[JustKeepTrying]

WOBG - I really resonate with all that you said and everything said here. I am very low contact with my OCPDeh and no contact with a narc sister. I hate the passive aggressive approach as it feels so inauthentic. And I also feel it is partly in how I was taught as a woman of my generation.

The women I admire when they come into contact with someone who crosses their boundary employ a direct yet measured approach. How is the weather? Fine. No need for elaboration and your location is not pertinent. Your actions and daily life are not her business. They then turn the conversation back to the other person and leave the question open ended so they can talk. The other person likes that and you have been authentic and protected your peace while not lying.

I have not been totally successful at this. I tend to ramble when I am nervous or have trouble with someone. So it really takes noticing your own behavior and excusing yourself if you need to. There have been many - Oh I am sorry I need to use the bathroom moments to give myself a time out.

The fact that you recognize it and distinguish and so beautifully described the approaches is inspiring.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi WOBG,

When I think back on when I went NC, I do wish I had talked to a good therapist, and went through a list of what I figured would happen after I went NC.

And then I could get some help and support for how to cope with those things.

No one wants to go NC. It is a last resort, as you know. It is a tough decision.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

The fact that you recognize it and distinguish and so beautifully described the approaches is inspiring.

That made me smile. Thank you, Just keep trying!

When I think back on when I went NC, I do wish I had talked to a good therapist, and went through a list of what I figured would happen after I went NC.

I do feel very lucky that I have access to a good therapist. I am thinking that if I do eventually go no contact, I have some stable professional support in place. It is a huge source of comfort.

I was contemplating how my thoughts around what would happen if I go no contact with my mum, resemble a lot the thoughts I had before I broke up with some boyfriends in the past, who were in many ways abusive. Like entertaining the possibility, counting the losses, even down to physical personal items that I have left in their (parents'/boyfriend's) place; deeming it almost impossible because of all the fear and guilt I was carrying, and then when it happened, it was liberating.

Does anyone like Buffy the vampire slayer? The episode with Tara and her family is very relatable.