Am I facing parental alienation?

[Izak80]

I just found out my youngest 15 yo son also is alienating from me
as well. I  set up a meeting to let him know my wife and I are pregnant (not planned, but joyful) . I was going to ask him to share his feelings about it and just listen. It was outside in the front yard at his moms house because he has been very busy with summer activities and that was the place he had time to meet with me before I left for a leadership intensive training for my work. I didn't want him to hear about it second hand or over the phone. I talked about how to share with him extensively with my counselor. My daughter responded with immense joy and even wrote her step mom a beautiful note about how she is going to be a great mother and an amazing step mom.

However, my 15 yo son walked into his mom's house. Slammed the door and started crying. I didn't want to follow him (it's his mom's house). He has since blocked me on all social media contacts and WhatsApp. I wrote him a letter on instagram sharing with him that I understand what he is going through but he will always be a beloved son. He can share with me when he is ready and I will only listen.

He is afraid he is going to be replaced.

Another problem with the situation is he often asks me questions parroting what his mom shares with me word for word, phrase for phrase.

I asked him mom about it the other day and she said "I don't have to cover for you when you hurt me." What she calls "hurting her" is usually when I lay down a boundary. Like when I shared I am not doing husband duties when I remarried (like painting her house, building for her a shed, and moving her house). She shared that with my youngest son and he was angry at me. He is a calmer deeper thinker and is gentle in nature, so he always asks respectfully- unlike my oldest son who has disrespected me since he was young (sometimes together with his mom yelling at me).

My adult daughter shared with me the situation with her brothers is very complex, and her mom's words to the boys about me doesn't help. That it's issues like my work travel schedule coupled with their mom's perspective about me that projects her on inner issues from her childhood (my kids have her childhood issues memorized too as she trained them). She also projects those on my daughter which is why she is living with me to give herself some distance from her mom in order to have a better relationship with her mom.

I honestly feel that all this drama started when I placed a boundary on my ex wife that my relationship with my 19 year old son is mine and that she is not a mediator between us anymore.

My youngest son also asked me about the issues surrounding that parroting his mom's words.

I broke my own boundaries with my ex wife and had a phone conversation with her about my oldest son's estrangement. She basically told me I need to fight and not respect his boundaries. That that's what he wants to see from me- to fight for my relationship with him when he tells me "no I don't want to be with you." She has been saying this for a year now. Honestly, I decided to try it this week and speak to him anyways. It didn't work. I went against my own gut which told me that I should let my oldest sons own words and decisions play out. She says that because he has Aspergers when he puts boundaries they aren't real boundaries, he wants to see me fight.

I think this may be somewhat projection, because when she filed for divorce- I put the ball in her courts. I told her I don't want a divorce (and I didn't at the time) but I am not going to fight her if she decided she wants one. Until the last day I shared with her I still don't want a divorce, but since she filed the ball is in her courts. I will not sign the papers if she decided she doesn't want one. The day came and I signed. She said much later after the divorce she was in shock. Because of my more conservative views about divorce and marriage (divorce never once came off my lips in our 19 years
Extemely painful marriage) she was sure I would fight and not sign the papers. She told me
as I was preparing my wedding and said she was hoping to reconcile and then I decided to get remarried). I took that as manipulation honestly to throw my feelings off before my wedding.
She asked me why I never fought the divorce or said no to her insistence on it. I told her this was an inappropriate question right before my wedding- and if she wanted to reconcile she had two years to do it, not right before my wedding. I feel she is projecting on my adult boy and encouraging me to not respect his boundary. To fight for him by ignoring his boundary.

All that I am deciding to go back to my original stance which was to respect his boundary for no contact and tell him I am open to a relationship when he is ready and not to be afraid that it's gone too far when he wants to reconcile- and I will only listen.

With my youngest son I don't think that's an option. He is a minor and not an adult and we have a court order to have time together.

She did throw into my face "you have two sons and not one" when insisting that I am more intentional with my younger son when suggesting I should break my boundaries with my older one.

It's interesting. Now my younger son is not talking with me and she is not pushing that at all or bothering me about insisting on my time with him  (maybe the symbiosis she has with my older son?). My older son had so many special needs (or wants) that he sucked all the air out of the room and I feel I was always needing to spend time with him from her on account of my younger son who I felt had little time because she always insisted on my relationship with my older one.  My younger son also felt like he got the short end of the stick. Since my older one turned 18 I have been super intentional with my younger ones me which she is now trying to make me feel guilty for. I want to know him.

Now he estranged. It is telling she is not trying to constantly get involved in the past couple days to try to fix it like she did with my older son.

[GoodPesto]

Hi Izak80,

you are afraid to lose the relationship with your children and one can get panicky around that subject. I do understand your main concerns and am able to follow that the interactions with your ex-wife are irritating, but I think with all due respect that there is a lot of pressure on your younger son.
He is in a very challenging age and had to suffer because of the seperation of his parents for sure. He is sensitive and you tell him about a half-sibling (congratulations). He reacts impulsively and is looking for some distance (deleting social media connections). You reach out to him anyway on one account that he hasn't cancelled and after only a couple of days you call him lost ("estranged"). In addition you are pointing to your ex-wife who hasn't gotten involved in the past couple of days?
I know people in this world seem to live a life at high-speed in comparison to the old days, but I think that a couple of days is not much time to a) digest the life-altering info b) calm down c) miss you and d) reach out?
Again: I get one could get panicky but imo one needs to be careful because this way estrangement has the potential to get the character of a self-fulfilling prophecy, because your teenage-boy (!) could become unable to cope under this circumstances.
Slooooooooooooooooow down.
Especially when one of his parents is not stable, another one that is could make a tremendous difference in his time of coming-of-age.
You are their father and nothing is going to change that.

[Izak80]

Pesto,

Thank you, that is very enlightening and so true.
I will give him some time.
He is a smart kid and will come around- great advice and thank you for speaking truth.  This is a lot for him to deal with as a teenager that has gone through a lot.

Poor kid has been through so much. I do feel he often gets the short end of the stick with me because my older son requires so much.

Also I am very concerned about parental alienation. He has been consistently asking me questions with information he shouldn't know from his mom and much of it is really off.

With my older son alienating I was feeling- oh no not again.
I was panicking. It's been a very hard couple of weeks.

You are right, he will come around.
Thank you for the perspective!

[Izak80]

Some other news is that my 22 yo daughter moved in with my wife and I and we have been having some incredible healing conversations. She opened up to both my wife and I separately. We have a hard policy between both of us to only speak well of their mom- even when she opens up. My wife and I actually pray daily for my ex and they are very positive prayers.

It started with my daughter opening up about my relationship with my wife and how it is has been amazing to see. That my wife is a real encouragement to her and she sees it has been real healing for me. She then gave me a big hug and started crying a little about it (happy tears). She sees our communication style is very healthy and good and it's new for her to see us communicate even disagreements with so much honor and respect for each other. She said, for a step mom, she really got the best. It took a while for my daughter to get there, but she went from being opposed to our marriage and rarely talking to us- to embracing it as her "safe place" (her words) and opening up to us about everything in her life (sometimes separately) and giving high value to our wisdom. We did ask her if she feels comfortable with her relationship with her step mom around her mom and she said "I just don't talk to mom about my relationship with her." I thought, my daughter is very wise!!!

She is also wise because she decided to move in with us, not to cut relationship with her mom, the opposite, to preserve it because she cherishes it. So proud of her for thinking with grace and wisdom and not black and white!!!

She did open up a few things that she wanted to understand deeper in our conversations. She does feel comfortable opening up about the hard things and we share our hearts.

She asked me before this conversation why I didn't fight harder for more custody if I knew their mom was in the state she was. She knew her mom's emotional state wasn't healthy and often abusive (her own words), but at the same time she fought like crazy to reconcile with her kids.

The other question she often asks is why did I travel and leave them with an abusive mom, saying to me something I didn't know- it got worse when you weren't around. Just for clarification- I would travel on and off around 3 months of the year (total together), but was at home full time with quality time with them 9 months (total added up). Usually in three week intervals ( I had work in Southeast Asia I was overseeing).

Another question she asked was, " why didn't you do more to protect us?"

I felt it was age appropriate to explain things I have held back because I didn't feel like they were mature enough to understand.
I told her in my convo I'm going to be gracious to her mom, but share her my own journey with them. I didn't need to explain the abuse, they lived it too. Just my story with them as kids. I asked her not to tell her brothers yet and that they don't know how to process this info as teens. No executive function developed yet.

First I shared where I made mistakes and how I am very sorry. That I didn't quite have the tools to know what to do and needed my own healing.

Second, I shared that the kids were always at the forefront of my mind. With a chronological history timeline, went through how I tried to handle it without the proper tools, the sacrifices I did make to be there for them in the midst of the hardships, and how even my separation (which I did twice- once when they were much younger)- had the health of the household as the primary and only reason. It was my attempt to get our family back in health with some ultimatums. The first time worked. After a few days of separation she decided to go to the therapist and psychiatrist and get depression and anxiety meds (she was suicidal, not something my daughter didn't know, my daughter remembers it by herself). She also knew although it helped with heavy depression and suicide, it didn't stop the abuse completely. I was able to share I took a risk separating for the sake of the family health and the kids.

I was able to share with her that during that time right before I separated the first time, I took a year and a half off of work and spent it only with the kids. She remembers that time together but doesn't remember the context. The purpose was it was when my ex was at her worst (she was in her room for nearly a year in depression and raging everyday and even somewhat violent with the kids after a miscarriage). My daughter remembers the violence (spanking in rage). I was able to share it was a conscious decision on my part to stay home and be a buffer for them and be there for their mom. I got 10k in debt but was happy to do it.

Before that time my work didn't require me to travel that much at all (one time a year for three weeks).

When I restarted work I didn't return to ministry because my family wasn't at that place. I became a tour guide and worked ourselves out of the 10k debt we were in... and worked hard to bring the kids on tour with me (something they also remember) and involve them in everything. I only took the SE Asia job after their mom was on meds and we moved to a beautiful supportive community.

I was able to share with her my hope for where our family could have been and what I was trying to accomplish with the separation and the kids were in my mind first and foremost. It was my attempt at fighting for them, although not perfect. Only after the second separation did I start getting the tools of knowing how to understand their mom and even myself.

She wept in my arms and said, " Dad, I really appreciate this conversation. The boys should know all this." I told her they can't yet, I am playing a long view here. She said, "you don't know how much healing this brings to my heart to understand the full story of us kids with you  from your side. It fills in gaps and questions I have always had and things that didn't make sense". 

We embraced and she came up to me over and over again for a few days saying "dad, you don't know how much it means to me that you shared your history with us."

The other question she had was nearing the end of our marriage and through the separation and at beginning of our divorce- I disassociated from both my ex and my kids.  Almost a feeling of being there physically but my mind somewhere else.

I was able to explain to her that I was at a place then where I was deeply hurting and had a feeling of hopelessness. Which is rare for me, I am a very optimistic person. That's how the kids remember me early on- fun, gentle, optimistic, but very ADHD. That I hit a point where my optimism hit a huge depression for the direction our family was going in and I didn't see a way out of the family system that was in place. On top of that, my son was yelling at me often with his mother (something she remembers vividly).  That I hit a depression and didn't have the tools to handle it. They when I separated I needed some time to heal myself and didn't feel I had the respect or the emotional capacity at that moment to be there- I was deeply hurting. But I did fight in that I went and got help, I kept my visitation schedule during the separation, and spent time as best as I knew how. But I was deeply hurting and had hard depression for the first time in my life. I asked her to forgive me.

[square]

I have no idea how your sons would respond to the information your daughter would like to share with them, but why can't they hear it?

They are old enough. Are they ready? I have no idea, but how would they feel learning later that Dad kept this information from them and didn't give them a chance to make their own decisions?

[escapingman]

I have no idea how your sons would respond to the information your daughter would like to share with them, but why can't they hear it?

They are old enough. Are they ready? I have no idea, but how would they feel learning later that Dad kept this information from them and didn't give them a chance to make their own decisions?

 

[Izak80]

I made mistakes with my daughter in the past in over sharing information she wasn't ready for in trying to process with her what she was experiencing when she was a young teen. Also during the separation I over shared some details of what I was going through. I didn't do the same thing with my boys- they barely know any information and they were too young to remember the first separation and when their mother was suicidal and somewhat violent with them. By the time they remember, there was only the manipulation, rage, control, and verbal abuse. I don't know how much they recognise that yet. I do not want to either parentify them or alienate them from their mother by new information. I think they see some of the behaviours as normal (and Israeli). Their narrative they have told me is I didn't know how to handle my Israeli wife. They think it's a cultural difference and that I am a southerner and therefore polite and kind, and their mom is an Israeli- verbally says what she thinks in a very agressive way. New information would burst that bubble in their head and I don't know if they can handle it without their executive function fully developed. I also don't want to put that on my daughters shoulders to do.

[square]

Sure, you don't want to overshare with or parentify your sons.

Telling them a brief version of the truth isn't either of those things.

In fact, withholding the truth and just silently sitting by and knowingly allowing them to believe lies is what is damaging.

I would agree that it's not your daughter's place to take this on, but yours. On the other hand, there needn't be any odd restrictions on the siblings talking among themselves.

Do you think your sons will feel loved, protected, and trusting if they knew their father just let them believe lies, year after year after year, that destroyed their relationship with their father, that disabled their ability to decide who to trust, that may have affected how they see men in general, including possibly internalizing those ideas?

No, don't parentify them. Don't ask them to fix anything. Don't trauma dump on them. Don't manipulate them to make you feel like the victim or to absolve you.

But, man, waiting until after their formative years are completely over is the most damaging idea possible. Just like you would not wait until after they were 25 to teach them to read or instill moral values in them, letting them believe lies and letting them build their entire moral foundation and life skill set on those lies - the damage will be done and repair will be unlikely beyond maybe the smallest steps.

[notrightinthehead]

Izak80 it seems to me that you are still deeply enmeshed with your Ex, so much conversation, interaction, texts, calls, requests - so much enabling of inacceptable behaviour from sons and ex - how does your new wife even deal with this?

It's good to read that you are in counselling yourself, your own behaviour is the one you need to work on. How about getting a break from the ex family for a while? You don't need to answer calls, you can silence them. You don't need to read or answer texts immediately. Do you think you are addicted to the drama your ex family provides?

There is a book that was very helpful to a lot of people on here including me 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist' by Fjelstad. I think you could benefit too. It helped me to stop focussing on the behaviour of my significant other and instead focus on my behaviour and how much I enabled my own abuse. It also helped me to understand that my enabling actually was not even good for the people whose bad behaviour I enabled. This is where we have to start.

You have been given good advice already, on setting boundaries, on non JADE, on BIFF, read up on medium chill and grey rock - and implement implement implement. You will get much better at it.

You don't have to make everything better. And the faster you admit to yourself that you can't make everything better the earlier your healing begins.

[Izak80]

Sure, you don't want to overshare with or parentify your sons.

Telling them a brief version of the truth isn't either of those things.

In fact, withholding the truth and just silently sitting by and knowingly allowing them to believe lies is what is damaging.

I would agree that it's not your daughter's place to take this on, but yours. On the other hand, there needn't be any odd restrictions on the siblings talking among themselves.

Do you think your sons will feel loved, protected, and trusting if they knew their father just let them believe lies, year after year after year, that destroyed their relationship with their father, that disabled their ability to decide who to trust, that may have affected how they see men in general, including possibly internalizing those ideas?

No, don't parentify them. Don't ask them to fix anything. Don't trauma dump on them. Don't manipulate them to make you feel like the victim or to absolve you.

But, man, waiting until after their formative years are completely over is the most damaging idea possible. Just like you would not wait until after they were 25 to teach them to read or instill moral values in them, letting them believe lies and letting them build their entire moral foundation and life skill set on those lies - the damage will be done and repair will be unlikely beyond maybe the smallest steps.

Thank you for this perspective. I am praying on this and taking it into consideration.

[Izak80]

Izak80 it seems to me that you are still deeply enmeshed with your Ex, so much conversation, interaction, texts, calls, requests - so much enabling of inacceptable behaviour from sons and ex - how does your new wife even deal with this?

It's good to read that you are in counselling yourself, your own behaviour is the one you need to work on. How about getting a break from the ex family for a while? You don't need to answer calls, you can silence them. You don't need to read or answer texts immediately. Do you think you are addicted to the drama your ex family provides?

There is a book that was very helpful to a lot of people on here including me 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist' by Fjelstad. I think you could benefit too. It helped me to stop focussing on the behaviour of my significant other and instead focus on my behaviour and how much I enabled my own abuse. It also helped me to understand that my enabling actually was not even good for the people whose bad behaviour I enabled. This is where we have to start.

You have been given good advice already, on setting boundaries, on non JADE, on BIFF, read up on medium chill and grey rock - and implement implement implement. You will get much better at it.

You don't have to make everything better. And the faster you admit to yourself that you can't make everything better the earlier your healing begins.

Thank you for sharing and giving advice and the book from your own situation.

Ive been in counseling on codependency for the last four years, which honestly started the path that led to my divorce. I asked our divorce counselor what I could've done to save our marriage, he told me that I could have put boundaries like I was  much earlier before patterns developed. So there is something in what you are sharing.

Yes I've been reading your on JADE and BIFF and have it on the forefront of my mind and trying to implement.

One piece of clarification. I hate drama!!!! With a passion!

I've spent the last four years of separation and divorce, and two years of being remarried, to get as much of a distance as possible.  This is what is actually creating the drama.

Sometimes I don't talk with my ex for one or two months, only child support amounts... that makes me extremely happy! Want as least communication with her as possible (please God!!!).

I put a boundary, and there is a retaliation. That is the pattern.
I also do have to coparent with her by law- and I deeply love my kids and she has primary custody (though joint).

I've just noticed she realizes she can't control me anymore, my boundaries are iron clad. She tried. I stood my ground. Now she is trying through proxy by the kids.

Everytime I put a boundary that is absolutely needed and she disagrees with , the pattern is some sort of retaliatory alienating behaviour happens.

I tell her I'm remarried and need boundaries and can't move her house, build her a shed, paint her house, or do husband duties anymore (also my wife put that boundary and rightfully so, but I didn't tell my ex because I don't want her to be the object of my ex retaliation). She retaliated by telling my kids I hurt her and don't want to help the kids!!! My ex wrote me the other day she is still bitter about my no on that.

I tell her my coparenting communication with her about my 19'year old son has come to an end, suddenly he alienates from me and goes no contact.

There are many many more.


This is a pattern and this is what frustrates me to no end.

When I place a boundary I do grey rock, am no emotional, and my nature is not to yell anyways or argue. Sometimes I over explain why I'm doing the boundary because I know she is already going to ask while dysregulation, so try to preempt that. I've learned from this forum I don't need to give her an explanation (E of JADE).

My wife is amazing and we have had a two year amazing relationship. She helps me stand strong and firm on my boundaries. We went through a six month course on blending families and the dynamics of high conflict before we got married. She is a trooper and my rock! She is very in touch with her emotions, but has done a lot of healing work herself. We help each other out.
She is not threatened by the drama of my ex and trusts me it's only about coparenting.  She does remind me when I am over engaging and encourages me that this is the supply she wants and not to give it to her.

Again, we travel a lot, and this drama will usually come up only once every two months or so- usually when a major decision or transitional moment happens. But the end result is always very painful to me as the retaliation nearly always costs my relationship with my kids.

[Izak80]

Also the retaliatory drama that was created when I refused to copay with her together for my oldest son to get marijuana illegally off the black market because she thought he needed for his Aspergers. I said no. Both he and she dysregulated on me. Later he got addicted. I still said no to paying. Stood my boundary. Suggested he may need rehab (he was smoking all day long and hotboxing). She went and told my son I thought he was an addict. My relationship was never the same with him after that.

All because I stood my boundary that I'm not paying for illegal marijuana.

[Rebel13]

Hi Izak, I can tell you are trying really hard and that you care so much about your children. Speaking as a child of crappy parents, that's wonderful to see.

However, if you can, I would encourage you to step back a little bit. I hear what might be a little bit of catastrophizing in what you write. For example, I don't think your ex-wife's retaliatory behavior has "cost" your relationship with your children. Unless I'm reading you wrong or getting confused, you are still in touch with them. My interpretation would be that perhaps they have learned some things from their mom, and when you don't do what they want, they step back from you a bit in an attempt to manipulate you. I'm not a parent, but in my understanding that's not even all that unusual for teens. So maybe you could try to give yourself some space and reassurance that they are taking a little break to see what you will do. And what you will do is hold firm on the decisions that are right for you, and what you believe as a parent is right for you. I agree with you that a good parent doesn't facilitate the drug abuse of a young person. But that's all you can do, is refuse to participate. You can't make your son do anything -- you can't make him stop smoking pot, you can't make him talk to you.

For a bit of perspective, I am in my mid-50s, and it has only been in the last two years that I have realized my understanding of my childhood relationships with my parents may have been completely wrong. I have been re-examining past events, my understanding of the relationship between them and their relationships with me, and who "made" who do what, if that makes sense. It will take your sons YEARS to get out from under being raised by a person who behaves as erratically and dysfunctionally as it sounds like your ex-wife does -- if they ever even have the space, insight and resources to begin their own healing. I know this is no fun to hear, but you are playing a loooooong game here. Try to remember that and give yourself, and your sons, as much grace as you possibly can.

[Izak80]

That is super helpful. I may be catastrophising, but it is super painful. Them being teens is definitely part of the issue, I agree.

I am now going on two weeks of my youngest 15 year old not talking to me at all and blocking me on all messenging apps and my 19 year old only talking to me once when he wanted money in two months.

What I understand up until now:

1.) My 19 year old is upset at me that I don't take his high functioning Asperger's serious enough. He feels like I treat him too much like a normal kid and my parenting with him was like a normal kid. He feels I am on the spectrum and am in denial.  He basically doesn't have many expectations for himself for life and feels I should feel the same. If I remind him of Elon Musk or other high functioning Aspergers that succeeded and didn't let it define them, he gets frustrated at me. Or someone who is a way more on the spectrum than he is- like Temple Grandin. Once I showed him the videos of the guy with no legs and arms and how much he can accomplish in life. My own story is I had ADHD, made horrible grades through 8th grade, and couldn't accomplish much at all. In 9th grade I went through a personal transformation with no help but from God and self determination. I worked two times harder than everyone else being that I had a learning disability. Graduated nearly a 4.0 National Honor Society, band awards, foreign language awards, and self dependent went off to college. I didn't expect the same for my son education wise, but I was trying to be a coach to him his entire life that he didn't have to let his high functioning Aspergers define him and I was here to help him learn to overcome. Never once yelled at him or called him names or told him he wasn't living up to my expectations. Only encouraged him whatever he did not to give up and do his best. I saw him do it and know his capabilities. They are phenomenal. He is actually highly gifted when he puts his mind to something and decides to push through and not give up. The biggest issue with his Aspergers is his sensory issues (cold, hot, smells, noise, etc) and his emotional overload issues (gets angry real easy real fast and blows up). He isn't shy and does real well socially. Has many friends that love him and even put up with his anger outbursts.
His mom did take courses on how to deal with his anger outbursts, but deals with her own issues of anger outbursts daily.  Honestly, I went into disassociating with both of their anger outbursts, sometimes they joined up and did it together. Still do, just I'm not there anymore. They rage at each other many times and seem to not mind it. They never understood why I couldn't just receive the culture or outbursts (with cursing, name calling, door slamming, slamming the phone down, silent treatment, accusations made in outbursts; etc). They act like it's normal emotions and I am the one who is off for seeing that as abnormal behavior. They call, including my son, my niceness and kindness- fake. They call my calm and collected way of wanting to "talk" about our problems and hear each other out rather than participate in fights as not having emotions. My son says I can't receive him the way he is- with his angry outbursts and decision to live as a victim of his Aspergers. I'm sometimes perplexed at why he doesn't want me to seem him as a functioning adult. He wants to remain a victim, just like his mom wanted to be seen as a constant victim of her childhood and wanted all the kids and I to relive it on a regular basis and recite her childhood trauma with every request she made of us. The basic idea was- if you care about me- you would know this about me and jump over all the hoops to make me feel not triggered. With my son it's the same... if you love me, you would do everything in the world to create the most comfortable safe place for me to be Aspergers and not expect anything out of me.

[square]

I would definitely also feel worried and frustrated if my kid seemed to strive for nothing and/or embraced a victim mentality. I admire what you acheived and feel for you in terms of your discomfort with your son's choices.

Ultimately, we as parents all have to face that our children are their own people and they will make their own choices and lead their own lives, whatever that may be. This is both very uncomfortable - but also freeing. You have responsibilities as a parent, to guide and protect and nurture, but also to see them set their own course. You do not have to carry this load.

As much as I agree with you, and I really do, about your son's porential and the examples of Temple Grandin and Elon Musk (and I did read Grandin's book) - your "encouragement" feels to your son like pressure to be somebody he either is not or doesn't want to be. Right or wrong, he feels misunderstood, invalidated, rejected. Your encouragements are clearly not going to inspire him, but the opposite. No matter how reasoned, well intentioned, or caring, that's just how it's landing for him.

You might reconsider your approach. You could consider radically accepting him and finding things about him, no matter how small, that you can connect with as is. He will chart the course of his own life, and if you step back, he might find room to be less reactive about it.

Another thought is that you might consider embracing his Asperger's identity. Instead of seeing it as "letting it define him," with those negative connotations, perhaps indeed let it define him if that is how he identifies himself! Certainly Grandin embraced her identity and enjoyed the strengths she brought to her work and life overall.

For many people, they can feel kind of "broken" in some invisible way, and it can be such a relief to feel like, oh! Actually, I'm not alone, I have a tribe who understands me!

I would obviously have no clue if you have ASD, but you mentioned having ADHD, and that puts you in the Neurodivergent club. Your son saying that you deny having Asperger's, one aspect of that is saying, "Dad, you are like me." He may want to connect with you on that level. You could consider identifying as neurodivergent, and put yourself in that club with him, and compare notes.

He seems to be sensitive to being pushed so I'd assume talking about how you manage to be productive despite challenges is gonna go over like a lead balloon. You know what I bet he'd like to talk to you about? What's been hard. Without the solutions. Did you lose track of time? Are you dealing with "waiting mode"? He might enjoy connecting about how agonizing it is, and how so many people don't get it.

I also share your discomfort with the emotional meltdowns. But if mother and son get each other, and you're not having to deal with it, consider respecting how they manage their relationship. PD is unhealthy but some people are emotionally driven and we (the other kind) just don't get it. And I don't. But I get that it's how many people are built.

Anyway, just food for thought.

[Izak80]

Square,

Thank you for the advice- really!
I am taking your advice. 

By the way, this is the senior graduation letter I wrote my son that he responded to and decided to go no contact.

״Just a quick reminder today:

Son, you are a beloved son. You are a treasure to me and celebrated. I believe in you and that you have it within yourself to succeed at life. You are strong, determined, and capable. You have a super power, that if you chose to believe in what you have inside of you, though obstacles may come and though they may be hard, you can overcome. Perseverance will guide you. Embrace lady wisdom. She is a tree of life to those who find her. Values and character matter, find them, live by them, let them be rooted and established in you. Do not look for shortcuts, but embrace the long beautiful journey. The easy road leads to a path of destruction, but your values will carry you to a tree of life. As you step into life, look for opportunities to grow even though they may be hard or uncomfortable. Be true to yourself, but in doing so, find your core values and stick to them. I love you more than anything son!Have compassion for yourself and your unique challenges, but also let that same compassion drive you to prove everyone wrong. Be the best version of yourself you can be! Having compassion for your journey drive you to become strong is your super power.

You are heading into adulthood, you can do this and this is what I see:


When you were a YouTuber- you created extremely professional videos and were very detailed on the quality of material you produced. I believe that if that was the path you chose- you would've been a phenomenal content creator.
You explored that path and decided that was not for you, but learned a great deal about yourself and about creating content in the journey.

When you embraced animals, your hunger for learning about them was unstoppable. If you chose that path, you would have been a great veterinarian. You didn't chose that path, but became stronger in the journey. You learned about animals and your ability to take care and responsibility. As well as the capabilities of learning.

When you set out to give your life to Jesus and God, you used your capabilities to draw others closer. I remember watching you in your room alone and pray to overcome struggles. You intentionally set out to be with friends and even make long trips to be at events that you felt would strengthen your faith. You are not on that path currently, but you learned your spiritual capabilities. It will serve you in your future and those experiences will never leave you.

When you embraced Israeli
Soccer, you learned about social interactions and team comradery. You learned the importance of supporting your team.

When you embraced kibbutz life and even nature parties, you learned what it means to be a good friend, what it means to organise events, and how to be part of a "tribe" relationally. Like you told me, these events are very similar to house churches.

Yes, there were many pitfalls, mistakes, and bumps in your journey of discovery. Learn from them while at the same time embracing what you gained.

You can do this thing called life and as your dad I want to be your biggest cheerleader. Your development included paths in learning to be human, relating to the world around you, and giving to the world around you by defining who is it you are. You developed in your mind, your body, your soul (emotions) and spiritually. Continue to embrace all of these developments, they come together in a beautiful tapestry eventually.

When you mess up, be quick to ask for forgiveness and forgive (others and yourself). God can be your biggest help on this journey. Be quick to take responsibility and repair whatever harm was caused by you intentionally or unintentionally. Repairing doesn't make you weak, it makes you strong. It doesn't define you as a bad person, just an imperfect person who has inner strength. "I am sorry" is the sign of the most powerful people that exist. Repairing what you did wrong is a super power.

One of the other things I loved about your growing up is your desire and wiring for truth, continue in that path. Let truth guide you, embrace it even if it is uncomfortable.״

[Izak80]

Update:

My Asperger older son wrote me again asking for money for his birthday. I sent him a gift with a short letter that I love him. He gave permission for periodic texting relationship. 

My 15 year old son who broke contact after I shared with him we are having a baby is still no contact nearly a month later. All outlets of communication blocked. This took me more by surprise because I felt we had a good relationship.

What is confusing to me is my ex is fighting for me to have a relationship with my older son, even got her older brother involved to help convince my older son to stop no contact. She felt I needed to "fight for him" and not respect his no contact. It seems like she is on a mission on this issue.

With my younger minor son- radio silence. Doesn't give me info on him or answers with just "ok" when I ask her about him and even his schooling. No encouragement to fight for him, no trying to give me unsolicited advice, no unsolicited texts about what he is going through.

It's really strange, but consistent with our history. She has consistently , even when married, pushed my relationship with my middle son on expense of my other two kids sometimes. I sometimes look back and realise that for a strange reason she would get often defensive if I did something special for my other two kids and wasn't "fair" towards my middle son- even though when writing a list the whole house revolved around both him and her and finances and time.

I remember she got angry at my parents as well when they expressed joy by having special time with my youngest at Disney world and she raged at them they don't care about my Asperger son. They were perplexed because it was the first time they ever had one on one time with my youngest and they have had more than a dozen with my middle. Also why can't they have joy having one on one time with my youngest for the first time?

Can't figure it out

[square]

That's a lovely letter. I hope he will come to appreciate it.

I'm glad to hear your older son has reestablished contact with you. I realize it's limited but it's great that the door is open.

Perhaps the good relationship you have previously established with your younger son will also help lead to reestablishment, hopefully sooner rather than later.

It really strikes me the level of control your ex wields over your sons' relationships to you.

It sounds like she is especially protective of the middle son and interprets others' interactions with him with a highly negative frame, assuming the worst. Dark interpretations of others' motives can be a form of paranoia. Does she identify more with him than the other kids? Does she see herself as the "hero mother," or the "only one" who could possibly understand him?

He is going to have trouble in the romance department.

[Izak80]

Square, yes exactly!!! She pulled him out of many schools, good schools, because they didn't "understand his special needs." Mind you, he is high functioning Aspergers (you can't tell in a normal interaction, only when he has sensory overload).

As far as the power she yields, while I wasn't the perfect parent understanding his special needs- she has been confronting me together with him since he was small yelling at me "you don't understand your son" in front of him since he was small. Now he believes that. And many of the things I felt I understood him very well. She has paranoia on many issues. All of this started when I wrote her a letter saying now that he is 19 I want my own relationship with him and our coparenting is over two months ago, a week later I wrote my son this graduation letter. She sent me a dysregulated voice text basically saying we needed to coparent him for life since he is Asperger and that if I stop with my 19 yo son, our coparenting  with my 15 yo son is also over. I sent her a text back that he is a minor and that is not legal. She then tried to lecture me through text that she is a single mother of three kids (I found that strange since the third kid is nearly 22 yo) and we should parent them for life. I wrote again that I want to coparent with my minor kid and have my own relationship with my adult kids. Right after that my wife and I found out we are pregnant. Suddenly, my two boys cut me off. First after this letter, second after we share we are pregnant two weeks after.

Today I asked my ex if she put my son on the school emergency contact. She said she won't because of my work travel and she put her sister instead. I calmly texted back that I share in medical decisions and what if school can't get in touch with her and my phone works internationally. She said when I chose to not travel for work anymore she will put me on emergency contact. I said I don't understand why it hurts to also have me on there since many people can be on the emergency contacts. She cited that she doesn't want the school wasting time getting in touch with me if I am on a work trip.

She said not to bring up her legal obligation to put me there since legally I am not following my parenting plan (even though we had an oral agreement when my job schedule changed that I would pay more child support and also make up the time when in town which I have joyfully kept- love being with my kids!!!). 

I haven't responded in text back yet.

My wife told me I should just call the school separately and request to be put on emergency contact list without asking her permission since she said no.

I'm not sure.

Don't like that simple requests like being one of several emergency contacts on school paperwork is so much drama!!!!! What happens if he needs a legal permission to get an epi-pen at school and she can't be reached. Her sister can't give that permission.

She is standing on the fact that it is wasted time for the school to try to call me as a second or third option in case of emergency. I don't understand it. My phone works internationally if I am on a work trip and the reverse is a worse situation since the others on that list can't make legal decisions (I don't mind them being there either though). It makes no sense. It's always something. It's a small request to have and I am their father.

I feel like I am constantly being stripped down to only "Disney land dad" and I have so much to give my minor son and want to be involved as I can. Both she and my younger son told me point blank I don't have authority in his life... like really honestly never have since he was small and we were married. I feel as if She has emasculated my role in my kids life and only cares if I take them out to do fun things (which I love doing) and nothing more.

[notrightinthehead]

You might find if you stopped sharing so much with your ex and contacted schools, adult sons, etc directly - cutting her out of the communication, you achieve more.