Am I facing parental alienation?

[Izak80]

 As of a couple of days ago, my middle Asperger son (19 yo) cut contacts with me. He cited what his mom stated to him consistently since he was young, that I don't understand him. When in truth I have worked very hard to understand my high functioning Asperger kid. However, the principles I concluded and she concluded are very different from each other. Which is ok with me if we disagreed behind closed doors.  She would regularly come in like mother bear, correct me in front of my kid, saying I don't understand him, from him being a very young age. Two examples that give a concrete example of the regular type of confrontation.

When he was 11 years old, he shut himself in his room for 12 hours a day playing Xbox and scream cuss words to the top of his lungs into the live chat feeds. I saw his anger becoming more explosive during this time, later I found out that he was exposed to porn on the chat boxes which eventually fueled an addiction. At the time, I was more concerned about his explosive anger (which parroted his mother's explosive anger). I also wanted him to spend more time outside and in other activities (Temple Grandin explains this a lot!). His mother however felt like it gave him a social outlet to learn social skills. All I saw was his social skills were becoming more explosive. I decided to limit his XBOX exposure to 2-3 hours a day. She was in agreement. I went on a work trip, and when I got home the limits were lifted and he was back playing 12 hours a day. At the same time, he was displaying abusive traits to his brothers and sisters. I decided to ground him from the Xbox. He went crying to his mom and his mom came to me in front of him (like she and him were teaming up together to confront me) and said "you don't understand your son and his special needs!" My son agreed with his mother and repeated it back to me. I felt shut down by once again (not first time this happened) and like my parental authority was stripped. He would talk back to me and even call me by my first name and she let him and defended him by he has special needs.

Another of many stories is when my son turned 13 he wanted to buy a pet. I thought it was a great opportunity to teach him work ethics. So I asked him what he wanted to do. He said mow lawns. So we created a plan to mow lawns, advertise in the neighborhood, and set a reasonable competitive price. I taught him basic skills in our own lawn. He got three customers that rotated every ten days. It was enough that at the end of the summer he could buy this lizard he wanted. I mowed with him all three lawns twice to show him techniques for specific lawns he was mowing. The third time he asked me to help, so I did. At the end, he said the heat and sticky grass was bothering his sensory issues. So I offered to continue working together with him to cut the time it took to mow the lawn and gave him periodical breaks to calm his sensory issues with heat. He wanted to give up, but I reminded him the power of keeping his word and commitment to his customers. Also not giving up when things get uncomfortable or hard, even with Aspergers, he could take breaks and I would help him. He screamed "dad you don't understand me, I want to quit". Ran to his mom crying, she came out with him yelling at me that I don't understand my son. Undid my parenting by telling him he is allowed to quit, and walked back in the house with him angry at me for not understanding his need to quit. She bought him the lizard in the end. I was left mowing the neighbors lawns on my free time to keep our word the rest of the summer.

My relationship with my son started to be seriously estranged whenever after the divorce I was asked to pay for his marijuana. My ex said he needed it for his Aspergers. I knew my son's addictive nature so I didn't agree. She went away on a trip and my son didn't want to stay with me since my remarriage so he stayed at his mom's house alone. She gave him money for marijuana (which he bought from black market since he was 17 at time
And underage for medical diagnosis that issues legal). I went to visit and check up on him catching him baking "brownies"
And hot boxing his mom's house. I knew then even though I disagreed my suspicions about addictions were true. Later he called me while his mom was in India begging me for marijuana money. He had spent all the money she gave him for it. I saw  he hotboxed a few days earlier, so I told him no and he knows I disagree with giving money for this since beginning. He then called me crying saying I am a horrible father screaming in rage at me he needs the money. I told him no. His mom called me from India vacation she was on berating me for not helping my son's marijuana needs and not letting her take a vacation to deal with this when I am the responsible adult even though he isn't staying at my house. He had a meltdown and so did she on the phone with me begging me to give him money for his "medical marijuana" need (off the black market). She said she would send me money and she would absolve me from my conscience paying for marijuana and I could hand it to him. I stood my boundaries and said I won't be party to his addiction. He was definitely having withdrawal symptoms with his meltdown. Later she found a friend to send money and give it to him.

When she got home we had a co parent meeting about this. I suggested he needed rehab as he hotboxed the house and was displaying severe withdrawal symptoms of rage about how much he needed the money after he wasted the money and supply provided for him. She called him out and asked him about the hot boxing, which he denied. She then said "how dare you say my son is an addict" in front of him. Then she said "again you don't understand your special needs son." From that point on my son and I had meetings but a very estranged relationship.

Three days ago he wrote me a letter when I encouraged him at 19 years old it's time to get a job and he can do it. I believe in him!!! Told him my child support was ending (I extended until he was 19 voluntarily because he is special needs and had an extra year of high school beyond what the law told me to do at 18). I told him at 19 my child support was ending and he needed to find independence or help his mom. I said he may have challenges as a high functioning special needs kid, but I know he can do it and encouraged him about all his amazing capabilities.

He wrote me back and said basically I was never a dad and never understood him. He is cutting me off and ending our relationship and he doesn't need my encouragement or help.

I am devastated. Wept for like two hours and could not breathe. His younger brother parrots the concerns of his brother and mother that I don't understand my high functioning (you wouldn't know until he has a meltdown, he looks and acts normal) kid. My ex made herself a fiduciary of his past his 18 birthday. I'm in shock, again everyone who knows my son thinks he is completely normal and has amazing capabilities. His autism comes into play in the sensory area or emotional meltdowns involving rage  when under stress (just like his mother).

I feel the evidence of the same things happening with my younger son pulling away from me and asking questions about my relationship with his brother and providing criticism of my not understanding him.  They parrot word for word their mother's words. It's devestating honestly. I lost my parental authority and ability to shape and discipline and teach them a long time ago. They told me to my face I don't have that role in their life and so does their mom. They admire her as a hard working single mom and say since she is the most present one in their life day to day she has that authority.

I so desire relationship with my kids!!!!
Although I told my oldest son I am respecting his no contact boundary, but when he is ready I am waiting and love him greatly!

[Izak80]

An update on this one is that my son asked me before he went no contact to not come to his senior play. This was after I arranged a flight to leave later for a work travel flight later to be there. The seniors are actually not in the play, it is the the 8-11th graders who make the play reinacting the life of the seniors. My younger son is in the play and worked all summer and really wants me to be there. My older son doesn't want me to be in the play because whoever will reinact him will put emphasis on his temper and marijuana use and he doesn't want me there to see it (see above post for why this is an issue for him). I told him before he went no contact that I want to come and there will be no judgment from me, I just want to be a supportive parent. 

I told my younger son that I am going to honor my older son's boundaries and not be there. However, I want to see the video. He was really sad. His mother told me that she also is asking me to respect his boundaries and not be at the play (again all the week before he went no contact).

I've been helping my younger son with preparing for the play. Bought him some of the clothing he needed and spent a lot of time with him on his lunch break and after the play practice.

Today his mother sent me a message asking me to buy a shirt for his play. I was very happy to and then asked her if she could video the play for me (I wanted to see my younger son's part). She told me she doesn't have video (which I found strange in today's smart phone age). Then I asked her if she could get one of her relatives to video it (all attending the play to support my kids when I've been asked not to be there).

She responded by sending me a voice text telling me to ask my older son if it was ok to get the video the school is making. All I wanted is the short clip of my younger son's role who isn't playing his older brothers part.

I started crying, because it has been five days since my son wrote me he is joint no contact. I can't believe she was suggesting for me to talk to him about it. I'm sure she knows. My other two kids knew and asked me about it.

It makes me very sad she would ask me non chalantly to ask my sons permission to see the play when she knows he went no contact with me. He tells her everything. It's been five days and all his siblings knew!

The only thing I can guess is she wanted to draw me into a conversation about my son going no contact so she can give her view of the situation. Last week I told her that my oldest son is now 19 and I don't want her advice anymore on how to work with my son. He is not a minor and my relationship with him is separate. I also told her my child support extension I voluntarily gave another year for beyond the legal responsibility is ending now at his 19th birthday. A few days after this my son cut me off after I wrote him the letter that he is an adult and it's time to find his own independence and I believe in him to do it.

I'm having a real hard time with the fact that rather than helping me see a clip of my 15 year olds role in the play, she is telling me to take it up with my son who asked for boundaries in going no contact. I so desire to see his role he has been practicing all summer for. Honestly, this whole thing really hurts.

The only thing I can make sense of this is that she wanted to draw me into a conversation that he went no contact with me so she can give me her opinion about why, especially after I put a boundary there to not talk to me about my relationship with him, it's mine.  I didn't respond with "don't you know he went no contact". I know she knows and think she is baiting me into a convo. I'm not going to give her that privilege when I already put a boundary there.

This has been very hard and I can't stop crying.

[escapingman]

I feel for you, this is abuse and definitely parental alienation.

If this play has not yet been I would say you go. Your younger son wants you there and whatever you do you will always lose to your ex and your alienated son. Other than this I don't know what advice to give you really. I had/have very similar issues with one of my daughters, I didn't see her for a year and did not regain contact until I backed off and stopped fighting for her.

[Izak80]

Escaping man,

That is very helpful!!!! I know giving him some time to figure it out while keeping my heart open to him will be a long term strategy.

An update is that my ex sent me a voice text saying my 19 year old alienated son is very hurt from me and she told him to share with me his feelings. I've always allowed me kids to share with me their feelings and just listen and validate. They know I am safe for this and that I don't get defensive and seek to understand. However, I also know something I can't share with them, in that their opinion is shaped by years of their mother brainwashing them towards me. Not that I don't make mistakes, lots of them, and am willing to listen and repair... I would jump to do that. My problem in the past was taking responsibility for things that were misguided perceptions of me. Apologizing for things that I didn't do and over validating. It was co dependent and my counselor and I are working on it.

I wrote her a simple sentence that my relationship with my 19 year old son is between me and him and I already gave that boundary.

She responded in anger and dysregulation accusing me of various things.



I  then decided to write my ex a long letter, and I wasn't mean with it. Very nice. I stood my boundary though and told her I don't want her to get involved between my and my 19 year olds relationship. I had already given the boundary, but stood on it again. I used words in my letter like refusing triangulation, letting our children differentiate, and looking to overcome symbiosis.  It was respectful, I used "we need to" to not be accusatory and include myself in the task.

She of course dysregulated on me with angry voice texts. She said, "if you don't want a coparenting  relationship with your 19 year old son, then we are also ending it with our 15 year old son. From now on you will need to get school and medical information from him. In my view, there is no parenting, I am a single mother to three kids. That's it!"

I responded by sharing that she is not a single mother to three children. She could make a case for being a single mother to my 15 year old son, but I'm in disagreement.I said that it is unfair to put the burden of updating me with school information and medical and forms on our minor child. I told her I will continue sending her child support as is my joy (love taking care of my son who is majority time with his primary caretaker). I told her I will be responsible with my own relationship with my two adult children without her interference. And we will cooperate on co parenting our minor child.

She erased my message and unfriended me of Facebook saying she refuses to read it after I wrote that. She wrote "our co parenting relationship with our younger son is over. Please only write me when asking about child support amounts."


She completely flipped when I wrote her just one sentence reminding her of my boundary that my adult relationship with my adult children and my problems with them is mine to manage.

I didn't say this, but many of our problems are due to her triangulation and alienation in the first place. They are not minors anymore. It's my right to have a relationship with them without the proxy. She is not the adult kids gatekeepers. That is serious symbiosis!!!

[GoodPesto]

I  then decided to write my ex a long letter, and I wasn't mean with it. Very nice. I stood my boundary though and told her I don't want her to get involved between my and my 19 year olds relationship. I had already given the boundary, but stood on it again. I used words in my letter like refusing triangulation, letting our children differentiate, and looking to overcome symbiosis.  It was respectful, I used "we need to" to not be accusatory and include myself in the task.

Hi Izak80,

you are in a difficult position. I can see that without being a parent myself but my ability to give advice from experience is non-existent.
What I can tell though is that what you think is "very nice" in your letter can be pretty upsetting to read even for non-PDs. The word "triangulation" for example especially in combination with "refusing" is quite something to swollow, even though it might be an accurate description from your point of view. Also "overcoming symbiosis" is dripping with the assumption her relationship with your children are inherently wrong and I guess nobody would like to read that just like that from a former partner you are not in good terms with, even if there is truth to it.
That she reacted harshly on this is not a surprise. 
I am not saying that there is a solution in the air for peaceful co-parenting, there might be one, there might not be one and it could be she was happy you gave her an excuse to cut you further out. But, and I hope you do understand that this comes from a place of wanting to support, your long letter might not have been as nice as you thought and between the lines more accusatory than you intended.
Maybe others who went down the road of co-parenting can tell you how they managed to communicate and share about pitfalls.

As a child of seperated parents I would say: Do not fight with her over the relationship with your kids. If she says something about it like you described, why not say "Thanks for the info, I will take care of it". Then turn towards your kid and see if there is anything behind what she said. No need to explicitly mention it, just give space and time and see if anything comes up. You do not need to report back to her, tell her she was wrong or anything.
For as long as you are not peacefully communicating I would also refrain from phrasing things as if you are a team because it can easily be perceived as being patronizing, especially as you have been the one that has left the family and is remarried.

I do not think you will reach your goal by telling her openly about it and by telling her what you do or do not want her or you both to do. Focus with your own behaviour on reaching it, the only one you can control.

I am aware this is not straight out validating reply but I hope you sense it's coming from a good place.

Best wishes

[Rebel13]

I agree with GoodPesto that less communication is usually more with high conflict people. A really good resource for this is the High Conflict Institute, especially learning the BIFF response.

https://highconflictinstitute.com/high-conflict-strategies/how-to-write-a-biff-response/
How to Reply to Angry Texts and Emails - 5 BIFF Response Examples

The article on Medium Chill in the Toolbox might help as well.

Wishing you the best!

[Izak80]

I agree on one side and your point is taken. This is the first time I ever wrote a letter like this coming from overcoming codependency and usually not speaking at all or giving in. Boundaries are hard for me with high conflict people. Working on them with my counselor. After writing this letter it's one of the first times in my life I felt empowered with her.

Also to be clear, the letter was my second communication with her after she deregulate. She told me she didn't read it and erased it.
She dysregulated when she tried to give me advice about my son's alienation from me and I said my son is 19 and my relationship with him is not my responsibility. Also felt empowered by that learning to put and stand on boundaries.

It's a learning experience. Probably made some mistakes, but it's a new journey for me.

[Izak80]

The other thing was in the letter I used "we" statements. That's what I meant about nice. We need to not be in symbiotic (meaning we both need to work on helping him differentiate as an adult).

[Izak80]

I don't see myself as having left the household also. I did initiate my separation, but without the intention to divorce. She was dysregulation on our kids all day and every day, even grounding them because she was jealous they were hanging out with another mother and that they loved that other mother more than her. She would blow up at me together with my son for something as simple as me pacing while talking on the phone, while both of them calling me by my first name. I tried to get us family counseling and after she left counseling again, my counselor encouraged me to consider a healing separation. I left the house with an ultimatum that I would come back in when we were together in counseling dealing especially with the explosive rage at me, my kids, our church friends and leadership, etc. and stay in counseling.  She then did go to a counselor,  went to a divorce counselor (also a licensed PD counselor )and saw him three months before I did. I was extremely sad because I didn't want divorce, but also didn't want the status quo with no counseling.  The divorce counselor after meeting with her three months before even meeting me is the one who told me in the first conversation that we are dealing with a personality disorder and gave me books to read (stop stepping over eggshells). He said he is in the midst of diagnosing this but she is about to drop out again. He said the chances of saving my marriage are very slim, but that is his goal (and mine, although healthier). After reading the book I realised how ill equipped I was in my 19 year marriage- didn't even know what a PD was until beginning of separation. Someone who knew my ex had suggested BPD and they had a BPD daughter  and they suspected it a long time ago (like beginning of our marriage) , divorce counselor  said either histrionic or covert NPd.  I didn't want to believe covert NPD about her honestly and since there was no diagnosis in the end, I'm treating it like BPD in my research and tools.
 My Asperger son carries the same explosive symptoms she does. After the divorce we went together to a counselor she chose for helping children of Asperger's, she is the one who pulled me aside and told me that my ex and our son have symbiosis. It's the first time I had heard that term. She tried to help give me some tools, but my ex pulled out of that co parenting counseling as well.

That's all to say I also put some of these terms in there like symbiosis that maybe a light bulb will go off and she could research what that word means and realize how to let him differentiate- because it's affecting my relationship with him and his personal development.

 Today I caught him driving his mom's car and he doesn't have a drivers license. My daughter was in the car with me when he drove beside us. I asked her if he is driving with a license now (also I would've known). She said no but he is driving his mom's car all the time. I'm in shock, feel like being outside the picture and having no voice is very hard.

[GoodPesto]

Hi Izak,

maybe the "what not to do"-section on this website will prepare you further for the communication with your former wife. It's understandable you have hopes to get through to her but it's not necessarily justified. Maybe getting professional help would be benefical for you too, if you got along with the counselor of the mother of your children, maybe he can support you navigate through this phase.
It's also understandable you seek the feeling of empowerment after all those years of emotional pain and I think you could find it by practicing some of the recommenend strategies of the toolbox or the "what to do"-section.

[Rebel13]

After writing this letter it's one of the first times in my life I felt empowered with her. ...

Also felt empowered by that learning to put and stand on boundaries.

It's a learning experience. Probably made some mistakes, but it's a new journey for me.

Absolutely! In time you will learn what works best in your particular situation to get the outcome that you want.

I very much support you in feeling empowered by stating what you want and how you expect others to treat you. For a long time I thought that's what boundaries are, but I learned from the Toolbox article on this site that the boundary is not telling others what we want or expect -- though of course we are free to do that, and often, within loving and respectful relationships, that can be kind and useful. The boundary is what WE will do. "If you are yelling at me, I will leave the room/house/area." And then we do that. We can't make someone else do something, or stop doing something. All we can do is decide what WE will do to keep ourselves safe.

If you look at it that way, it's maybe not that useful to communicate with your ex about your relationship with your adult son. That relationship is now between the two of you, and it doesn't involve her -- just like his relationship with his mom is between the two of them, though of course you will listen if he wants to share his thoughts or feelings with you.

I hope you figure out what works best for you to have the kinds of relationships you want.

[Izak80]

Hi Izak,

maybe the "what not to do"-section on this website will prepare you further for the communication with your former wife. It's understandable you have hopes to get through to her but it's not necessarily justified. Maybe getting professional help would be benefical for you too, if you got along with the counselor of the mother of your children, maybe he can support you navigate through this phase.
It's also understandable you seek the feeling of empowerment after all those years of emotional pain and I think you could find it by practicing some of the recommenend strategies of the toolbox or the "what to do"-section.

Yes I've been reading the site and it's extremely helpful with the tools. Currently I am getting regular counseling, but it might be a good idea to reach out to her counselor? Is that what you are suggesting?

Today my ex and I had a phone conversation. She explained to me that since our child is special needs that our co parenting relationship for him shouldn't end and he will probably need extra support way into adulthood. The only hard time I have with this is she is very high conflict. She was thankfully completely calm and regulated at the conversation, but just like always when we communicate she takes jabs at me. Like always, I just usually ignore them and continue on to the topic at hand.

 
Today I did speak with her about the parental alienation with my boys as well and them telling me periodically things that their mom is telling them about me (I only speak well about their mom with them even at great costs of being misunderstood by them). She told me that "if you hurt me, I'm not going to cover for you and I will share with our kids". I just stood in silence dumbfounded and didn't know how to respond.

She cited me hurting her a year ago when she asked me to help her move and paint her house when she was moving. She felt like it was her right to ask since my boys live there most of the time. She also asked me to build a shed for her.  My wife felt uncomfortable with that and I also felt I needed to put boundaries that those are marriage favors not ex wife favors. I also recently moved and didn't need her help, I would also find it strange to ask my ex wife help to move. I help a lot of people move, but felt being remarried and being in my ex wife's presence for a full day doing chores for her and it wasn't comfortable for my wife. Felt like a boundary needed to be put there. She told me she nearly cut off all communication with me she was so hurt that I didn't help her move.   If my kids would have asked for help, I would do that in a heartbeat. Anyways, she told my son that dad doesn't want to help us and this was so unnecessary that he got hurt from it because it wasn't a conversation he needed to be privy to.

She said to me that she doesn't understand why she can't ask for favors around the house when her kids live with her.

Maybe I am missing something?
Were my boundaries inappropriate to the level that she cut most communication with me about the my boy besides necessities?

I'm learning this boundary thing and took blended family counseling. At the time we had a whole course on proper boundaries in co parenting and my counselor said that is a good boundary especially if your wife says she feels uncomfortable.

I just realised now a year later how much damage that boundary did in her heart and it got spread to my boys.

[Izak80]

After writing this letter it's one of the first times in my life I felt empowered with her. ...

Also felt empowered by that learning to put and stand on boundaries.

It's a learning experience. Probably made some mistakes, but it's a new journey for me.

Absolutely! In time you will learn what works best in your particular situation to get the outcome that you want.

I very much support you in feeling empowered by stating what you want and how you expect others to treat you. For a long time I thought that's what boundaries are, but I learned from the Toolbox article on this site that the boundary is not telling others what we want or expect -- though of course we are free to do that, and often, within loving and respectful relationships, that can be kind and useful. The boundary is what WE will do. "If you are yelling at me, I will leave the room/house/area." And then we do that. We can't make someone else do something, or stop doing something. All we can do is decide what WE will do to keep ourselves safe.

If you look at it that way, it's maybe not that useful to communicate with your ex about your relationship with your adult son. That relationship is now between the two of you, and it doesn't involve her -- just like his relationship with his mom is between the two of them, though of course you will listen if he wants to share his thoughts or feelings with you.

I hope you figure out what works best for you to have the kinds of relationships you want.

Agreed, I am learning more about boundaries, because I had poor boundaries during my first marriage. Thank you so much for the advice.

On my phone call today I understood from her she did not read that message. It was in English and she preferred a phone call.

She got angry about my text that I wrote my relationship with my son is mine now. She expressed that to me he is special needs and it doesn't work that way. She understands him more than I do and he will indefinitely need our co  parenting support. That is what she was angry about.

I told her I understand her perspective but see things differently.

He is diagnosed high functioning autism. Meaning if you knew him you can't tell. He carries none of the traits and mannerisms of more autistic kids. I've see him very capable, but do recognise the challenges he faces and want to help him. He is not even shy, is very outgoing, and loves social events. It comes more in emotional dysregulation as well with sensory issues and quick tempers when there are misunderstandings. He even learns well and has a good work ethic when he keeps a job. My problem isn't that he doesn't need extra help or learn special communication with him. My problem is she is treating him so special needs it is hindering his development and making him feel he can't do much and will forever need help. I watched recently Temple Grandin. She was much more autistic than him and had more of the mannerisms. She became an amazing functioning adult with a lot of help. This is really a conflict we both have had since he was five. She would constantly pull him out of schools citing they were unprofessional because they didn't deal with his autism correctly. She would constantly correct me for saying I didn't understand his autism, on simple things like limiting Xbox use to three hours or teaching him how to mow a lawn and get a job.

That's really what our convo today was about. That he will forever need our help and co parenting communication. There is nothing wrong with low functioning autistic children, I would adjust appropriately to that... but he is diagnosed high functioning and I don't want to treat him like he can't or is forever going to need society to take care of him. I've seen him accomplish too much when he puts his mind to it. 

[Izak80]

What is also hard, like in our phone conversation today, is she talks to me everytime like she always has the moral high ground down to me. It's not even a conversation to be honest. Always needs to put in a jab. And she will either be sweet or dysregulate, but feels she knows what's best and will fight for it. I think she has some great ideas sometimes, but sometimes I disagree. It feels like she doesn't even give me room to disagree and that invites a wrestling match. If not in dysregulation, like this time when she was calmer on the phone, it's in reasoning from a place that she carries the moral high ground- almost like a lecture. Not a conversation.

So yes, I don't want to coparent by proxy of her ideas that I disagree with and we can't even come to a compromise.

I would rather just have my own relationship with my adult son a on our  terms we will work out separate from her. If he decides to make decisions on the direction of his life with her together, I won't interfere, he is an adult. It's sad, that direction has him believing he won't be able to do much with his life. I see the giftings in him. But I don't want to participate in coparentint in the directions she is taking him when he is already an adult.

[square]

I think in your case, the less explaining the better.

For many PDs, verbalizing boundaries in any way is like waving a red flag to a bull. They feel existentially offended by any boundary that is not their own.

What you would do instead is just live your boundaries. Don't announce them. Don't say "I want to see the kids more, I feel like they've been kept away from me." Say, "I'd like to pick up the kids next Saturday or Sunday." This doesn't guarantee she'll agree but it doesn't alert her to any feelings of inequity you have or your overall plans or goals. It's just a visit.

Refusing her requests/demands are not likely to go well, but the less you say about them the better. Instead of "my wife is uncomfortable and this isn't appropriate and from now on I'm going to say no," stick as close to "I'm afraid I can't" and "too busy" and "I don't think it'll work out" as you can. It's not that these will avoid conflict, they won't, but telling her your thoughts and plans is both fueling the fire and giving away the game plan.

I'm sure she's got you trained to give her allllllll the information and details. You can practice stopping that. It's called no JADE - don't Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. You are likely doing a lot of the latter two.

[Izak80]

I think in your case, the less explaining the better.

For many PDs, verbalizing boundaries in any way is like waving a red flag to a bull. They feel existentially offended by any boundary that is not their own.

What you would do instead is just live your boundaries. Don't announce them. Don't say "I want to see the kids more, I feel like they've been kept away from me." Say, "I'd like to pick up the kids next Saturday or Sunday." This doesn't guarantee she'll agree but it doesn't alert her to any feelings of inequity you have or your overall plans or goals. It's just a visit.

Refusing her requests/demands are not likely to go well, but the less you say about them the better. Instead of "my wife is uncomfortable and this isn't appropriate and from now on I'm going to say no," stick as close to "I'm afraid I can't" and "too busy" and "I don't think it'll work out" as you can. It's not that these will avoid conflict, they won't, but telling her your thoughts and plans is both fueling the fire and giving away the game plan.

I'm sure she's got you trained to give her allllllll the information and details. You can practice stopping that. It's called no JADE - don't Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. You are likely doing a lot of the latter two.

You read me like a book.
I do a lot of explaining.
Constantly thinking how can I explain in an understandable way, kind way, but firm way (in the past not so firm).

Thank you, super helpful!!!!

[Izak80]

Yeah, I actually didn't tell her that my wife said that she feels uncomfortable. That would probably cause her to lash out at my wife. I know better. I just told her I needed boundaries in the area of asking favors that normally husbands give. That if it's about the kids or the kids ask me it's a different issue.

Either way, I've learned from you that any explaining. It's Better to just say "that doesn't work for me."

[GoodPesto]

Yes I've been reading the site and it's extremely helpful with the tools. Currently I am getting regular counseling, but it might be a good idea to reach out to her counselor? Is that what you are suggesting?

Hi Izak,

I understand what I wrote could sound like that so thank you for asking. From what I understood you two had the same counselour for some time and I suggested that maybe he would be of help as he is familiar with your struggles. To contact a counselor that is solely her trusted person would not get you far because of confidentiality and would on top be a boundary-crossing step.

[Izak80]

Yes I've been reading the site and it's extremely helpful with the tools. Currently I am getting regular counseling, but it might be a good idea to reach out to her counselor? Is that what you are suggesting?

Hi Izak,

I understand what I wrote could sound like that so thank you for asking. From what I understood you two had the same counselour for some time and I suggested that maybe he would be of help as he is familiar with your struggles. To contact a counselor that is solely her trusted person would not get you far because of confidentiality and would on top be a boundary-crossing step.

We had several counselors together.

1 family counselor before our separation encouraging me to consider a slow process of a healing separation because of the dynamics in the house after she interviewed the kids. Before we moved on with her further my ex (then my wife walked out on her). That ended that family counselor. This became a trend and was trend beforehand.

2.) 1 divorce saving counselor and one family counselor helping us manage our separation. The divorce (family emergency) counselor is the one who suggested she has a PD (she saw him three months worth of meetings before I did by her request). She walked out on that one too. Our new family counselor that helped us build visitation schedules during the separation and worked with my kids also suggested she may have  a PD after interviewing the kids. Eventually she walked out on her too (all professionals highly recommended in their field). I continued with her so I can do best for my kids. She also saw her long before I did and noticed something off.

Those were in America.
After the divorce she moved back to her home country (Israel) and I followed to be with kids. She claimed American counselors didn't understand her abrasive chutzpah culture and were evaluating by American standards. She is Israeli.

3.) Family counseling she had to help her with my middle son in Israel. She suggested I go with her eventually because it's not only I don't understand my Asperger son, it's that I don't understand my Israeli son and am leading the house and wanting to manage it by American standards. Israelis often talk to each other, their kids, and kids back to their parents in agressive ways. She said I didn't understand that as an American. Kids talk back to their parents all the time in Israel.

Anyways, I went to the Israeli counselor in good faith hoping it could help our coparenting a special needs kid. That counselor told me she thinks my son and his mom have a symbiotic relationship and that's the challenge I'm dealing with. She didn't tell my ex she told me that, but my ex wanted to keep the narrative with her Israeli counselor that I don't understand my special needs son and his Israeliness. That's not at all what the counselor said. She said she would get back to me, next thing I know she dropped out of that one too.

So now we don't have a counselor together.

[Rebel13]

I forgot to say, in my post above about boundaries, and how good it feels to state them -- there's absolutely no reason you can't write a letter that you don't send! That way, you get to feel the strength and power of expressing what's important to you, but you don't inflame the situation with the high conflict person. You can get your thoughts and feelings down for yourself, and then work on a BIFF response (or whatever communication works for you) that you will actually send.

There's even a place here to post your unsent letters!

Wishing you the best.