Handling illness/injury

Started by Stillirise, July 13, 2020, 10:13:42 AM

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Stillirise

How do you navigate the terrain with a PD co-parent, when your child has an illness or injury, both on your time and theirs?

This past weekend, DS11 was with his uPDF.  He fell on Friday evening, injuring an extremity.  I learned of it yesterday morning, because it still hadn't improved, and DS was supposed to be returning to my house in a few hours.  I called a walk-in clinic, to verify they were doing x-rays, and xuPDH agreed to take him in.  He has a fracture, which they splinted.

I really didn't say anything to the PD about it, because anything I say is used as ammo for harassment.  However, I was a bit upset that I wasn't notified, and he wasn't treated sooner.  I should note, I'm a healthcare provider.  I also think he told DS not to tell me sooner, so that I "wouldn't worry." 

In addition, DS has an orthodontist appointment tomorrow, that has been scheduled since last winter.  Now, xuPD has been sending me several messages, asking if it is necessary now, etc.  I replied I was confident the Dr would know best how to proceed, and stopped responding.

Being new to the co-parenting process, any tips or ideas you have for handling these types of issues is welcome!
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

Penny Lane

Hi! I'm sorry to say that this is one of the stickiest PD issues. This has come up time and time again on these boards. My husband's ex wife, my stepkids uNPDBM, is at her absolute worst when it comes to injuries and illnesses. The kids have gotten a head wound that could've easily been a concussion and almost poked their eye out with NO medical treatment until DH found out about it days later. BM literally once left a shivering 7 year old who we later learned had pneumonia alone on the side of the road for DH to pick up, because BM had decided to change the drop off point at the last minute and he "didn't get there in time." It's very scary!! So you're smart to try to prepare for more of this. The good news, if you can call it that, is that you're definitely not alone.

I think at its heart is a combination of 1. PDs have a hard time sympathizing or caring about someone else's pain 2. dealing with kids' medical issues is inconvenient 3. they want to "catch" you letting the kids get hurt so they can use it in court which 4. leads them to project that YOU are trying to use it against them in court, so they try to hide it. And then there's potentially 5. which is that they might be covering up serious abuse or neglect, which is always at the back of my mind.

The most obvious goal would be to try to get the other parent (in your case your ex) to take the kid to the doctor when they need to go to the doctor. DH has tried to encourage this by making it clear that if the kids show up at our house with a potentially serious injury, they will get taken to the doctor. This has not worked; BM has not taken the kids to the doctor other than an appointment that DH scheduled in ... five years, maybe? And even then he really tries hard not to schedule appointments for her time because she forgets or "forgets." In other words we have not figured out a way to achieve this goal.

So then the question is, what can you do? First of all exactly what you did. Make sure the kid goes to the doctor as soon as possible. If the kid has to stay home sick from school, and they arrive at your house, be prepared to have to drop everything and take them to the doctor because they could be much sicker than you've been led to believe (like our pneumonia incident). You are just going to have to be the driver of every medical issue and getting the kids help for it.

The other thing is that as the kids get older, you can talk to them about your thought process, when do you call the doctor, what symptoms should they look out for. This has come up at my house because BM gets really angry at DH for taking the kids to the doctor about things that happened on her time, and it sounds like she tells the kids that he's trying to get her in trouble. So we've had to really clearly explain why what we're seeing here is a problem and what we're seeing there isn't. (Stuff like, how high of a temperature is a problem, why a scratch on the face near the eyes or ears is more concerning than a scratch on the arm or leg, and when you should go in to check for a broken bone). DH has also modeled for the kids calling the doctor's office to find out if something is bad enough to bring them in or if it should just be monitored. We also do this for ourselves and explicitly tell the kids how we make decisions about our own health. We want it to be clear that it's not a DH or BM thing, it's about taking care of yourself when they're sick.

This helps the kids feel rooted in fact and it helps them grow up understanding when to call the doctor or take their own health seriously. What their dad is doing is a form of gaslighting - treating their potentially serious injuries like they're not serious. You counteract this by giving them facts and treating their feelings seriously, even if they're confused or frustrated. At least when they're old enough to take charge of their own health, they'll know what to do.

This is an unfortunate and sad pattern that you're going to hear over and over on this board. The PD is going to be terrible, in ways that are potentially or actually harmful to the kids. You can't stop it and the more you spend energy to try, the more they will do it - because they want your energy being spent on them. The solution is to do the best you can with what's under your control - parenting time or decision making power. To learn to accept that you aren't responsible for your ex's actions. And the best way you can spend your energy is to focus on making the kids more resilient, so they can take care of themselves when their parent is refusing to take care of them.

I saved this for last but I want to go back to the most obvious goal, which is to get your ex to do the right thing going forward. What DH and most of the other parents on this board have learned is that simply asking your ex to do something often doesn't yield good results. BM will NOT do something just because it's in the kids' best interests. She will do something if she thinks that other people (doctors, teachers, her friends) will find out how neglectful she's being, if she will have to spend more money by NOT acting, or if she thinks that DH is going to take the matter to court. The only times he really asks her to do something with any hope of a positive response is if it falls into one of those categories.

There's another reason to ask him to do something different, though, and that is to document. Even if you weren't at the beginning of your divorce, I don't think it would be bad to have a record that he is careless with your son's health and that you've asked him to do something different. He might change because his lawyer tells him to (this is more likely if the message is delivered from your lawyer to his, though the drawback of that is that it makes it seem to the judge like you can't talk about parenting issues). I always like to offer a solution even though up until this point BM has never taken DH up on it. It makes a record that you're trying to be productive, so if he says there's no solution you can show that you've offered him one. Here is a potential script.

"DS fell at your house and fractured his bone and you didn't take him to the doctor until Monday. When the kids fall like that, it's important to take them to the doctor ASAP for this reason. If the kids ever need medical care during your parenting time and you can't take them, please let me know and I'll try to make it work.

Also, in the future, I'd like for us to let each other know about injuries like this. With the kids going back and forth, we both need to have this information. I'll of course share the same information with you."

At this point in their coparenting relationship, DH probably wouldn't send that. It is totally fine if you don't want to send it, that it's not worth the energy knowing that nothing will change anyway. But you might decide you need to at least give it a try. When you feel you need to document stuff like this, Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm is the way to go.

When he responds abusively, remind yourself that that's OK. The goal isn't to change his personality, it's to know that YOU made the effort to resolve the issue and to document the problem for a potential future judge. (On that last point, a rude response kind of works in your favor in court although obviously a productive response would be better for everyone.)

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's very hard and very scary, and it's not your fault at all. Your ex acted badly from beginning to end, and your son was the pawn he used. This stuff might get easier with time but it never actually feels OK.

:bighug:

Associate of Daniel

Penny Lane has written a great response to this.

To be honest, reading both of these posts exhausted me.  I've been dealing with this ... rubbish... for so long (nearly 8 years) that thinking about it and writing about it is exhausting.

2 things I will say though:

No matter what, the children's needs come first.  If you decide to do the right thing (take the children to the doctor/not take them to the doctor), the pd will behave the way the pd will behave.  That's completely on them. You would have a clear conscience that you did the right thing for the kids.

Secondly, try to parallell parent as opposed to co parent.

The differences can be subtle but my approach is to live life as a parent as though the other parent isn't there.

Eg:  if your child needs medical attention on your time that should have been given on the other parent's time, take the child to the doctor and report back to the other parent later.

That's not a great example, especially if court orders demand more communication/agreement between the parents.

Hopefully others can pitch in with other ideas.  As you can probably tell, I'm a little over dealing with this in my own life.  It's a topic that just doesn't seem to have any workable answers.

Another tip before I go, and this might not apply in your situation.

If your children end up with a stepmother, do everything you can to keep her from attending your children's appointments.

This is born from my own experiences with my ds13's uNPD smother.

AOD

Stillirise

Thank you both for your insight.  I took DS to be fitted for a cast last week. He seems to be handling things quite well, considering. 

We are in the midst of negotiating our divorce settlement. I think I will add the bit about how we are expected to handle illness/injury in with the other arrangements regarding custody, insurance, who pays for what for the children, etc.  I don't expect it to actually be something enforceable, or that he would stick to, but at least the expectation will be laid out there with everything else.

I am trying to set boundaries for parallel parenting from the start, as I know co-parenting will be impossible.  I also think over time, he will continue to shirk his parenting responsibilities.  While I hate that my children will lose out on a rich relationship with a stable father, it may be for the best to just let him fade away.
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

Associate of Daniel

Going by my experience, your ex is unlikely to sign any suggested wording for court orders that have anything to do with handling the children's health.

You'll likely end up with the standard wording of "equal and shared responsibility".

I'd do everything you can to be as specific as possible with the orders but you'll probably find he'll fight it all the way.

Then he'll sign off on them, only to twist the wording - even on sentences that you'd think are impossible to  interpret in any way other than Z.

Hopefully he will fade away, although you'd then be facing the pstchological difficulties that brungs for the kids.

The irony of my situation is that my uNPD exH likely would have faded away if it hadn't been for his uNPD wife.

She can't stand not having attention and adulation. What better way to get them than by being a step parent to someone else's child, taking over the roles and responsibilities of both biological parents?

I'd try to put orders in place to say that no 3rd party takes the children to medical appointments unless in the case of an emergency.

AOD

Stepping lightly

Hi Stillrise,

Healthcare is such a tricky area.  It's been a nightmare in our situation.  We highly suspect Munchhausen by Proxy with BM, and the kids have been kicked out of multiple pediatriciatric practices due to the immense conflict she created.  The good thing is your son is 11 so at least you don't have a really young child who can't express what is happening (pain, discomfort, etc). 

IMO, no matter what you put in an order, it's going to be a big challenge, it's such an easy point of conflict and control for a PD.  Make the best decisions you can for your child, document thoroughly.  We fell into the trap for a long time of making decisions based on how BM was going to react.   It ...was...horrible.  We became so panicky when the kids were doing anything that might cause an injury.

You can't control how the PD will manage health/injuries on their end.  I think you can justify an orthodontist visit, and if there is an issue the ortho will document need for further appts.  If you were dragging him to specialists often with no apparent issues, the judge might raise an eyebrow, but otherwise....you have a right to ensure your child gets the care they need.

Penny Lane

I'll echo what the others say. You have a finite amount of capital in a divorce negotiation, and I wouldn't spend too much of that capital on something that won't be enforceable anyway. The reality is that THEY won't follow it, and furthermore, they will try to use it as a weapon against YOU.

Medical provisions that are helpful:
- Who is in charge of the insurance (if you can provide it, DO IT, use all your capital on this. BM was in charge of the kids' insurance and took them OFF her work plan and put them on a really bad ACA plan, which she eventually just stopped paying for so it lapsed).
- How much each person pays for doctors bills (probably will be determined by your jurisdiction, at least to some degree, here it's 50/50 for joint custody)
- How reimbursements for medical payments work (you'll need to do this for other expenses anyway, this is always going to be a nightmare but DH's order says each parent pays their half directly to the doctor. This system has some pretty major upsides as well as some pretty major downsides)
- Mom has final say when it comes to doctors issues - if you can get this in there definitely do it! Obviously he will not like this.
- Maybe if there's a disagreement on a course of treatment, that you go with the doctor's recommendation? I've thought about this in our situation. Then at least there's a neutral decider who makes generally good decisions. And if there's an emergency a decision can be made immediately without a court order.

A series of "if/then" or instructions on what he has to do - that probably won't be helpful. There is just no way to write into a court order everything someone has to do in order to be a basically decent human being and a not neglectful parent. The more words you need to explain it, the more the PD can twist up the words and say they were following it. I think your best bet is to just take the kids to the doctors appointments they need, when they come home, and teach them how to alert you if something serious happens when they're with their dad.

I'm sorry! It's so frustrating and hard.

This has come up this week because the kids got really sick, like stomach issues, throwing up. They're old enough to remember throwing up yesterday! "Didn't happen," BM says. She's arguing that these feverish vomity kids just like ... magically didn't have any symptoms at her house? I have no idea why she's picking this fight, but every update that DH gives her she responds "this is not true, the children are not sick" even though they're here? It's so bizarre and it's kind of scary because they could get sicker and she just wouldn't take them to the ER.

Fortunately it sounds like your kids are only with their dad for a short stretch at a time, so I think you'll be able to mitigate any issues before they get to that point. Most kid issues, even broken bones or bad illness, can be addressed the next day. It's not IDEAL, but it's better than in a week on week off schedule.

I also think you're right that this might be moot, that his visits will quickly taper off and then he'll only see the kids either when it benefits him in some way (father of the year act for a new friend or date) or if he's mad at you and is trying to prove something. And I think you're right that that might be good. In theory they could have a secure relationship with a stable father, but in reality that's never on the table with him as their father anyway.

You guys will be OK, in fact better than OK, you and your kids will do well no matter how the medical things shake out.

:hug:

Stillirise

Thank you all for your support and encouragement!  He did agree in our collaborative session to let me keep the kids on my policy, as they have always been, with him contributing toward the premium.  I just couldn't see leaving something like that up to him to keep up!

I definitely won't waste much capital on this issue in negotiations, but will make sure I at least speak my mind about it at some point.  Then he can't say he never knew I expected to be notified.

PL, I can relate to the gaslighting/magical thinking surrounding this (not sick at my house.) I've already experienced other episodes such as that. I can only imagine stbxPD's internal chaos when he realized his magical thinking had failed to heal a fractured bone, and it was certain I would  find out about it shortly!

You all have no idea how thankful I am for this site, as I deal with one thing after another, big and small. 
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

Stillirise

Just wanted to update that it's more of the same in this department! We are now dealing with a second injury that happened on stbxPDh's watch—very similar to the first.  DS at least felt secure enough this time, to call me and let me know what happened.   I took him to a dr to verify the next day, and called the stbx.   He just "couldn't believe" it was the same type of injury again.

We also had an illness incident last month, where I got a call to pick them up, because DS wasn't feeling well.  Apparently, stbx doesn't do illness? Anyway, DS had a fever when we got home.  Both kids and I quarantined for almost a week, waiting for covid results (thankfully negative).  Meanwhile, the stbx continued to work like nothing happened.   He then likes to tell me and everyone else about how he has to work, while I "get" to  stay home.  The PD thought processes never cease to amaze me!
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

Penny Lane

You're not alone! We've had a threatened broken arm that BM ignored for a WEEK before the kids came back here, multiple COVID quarantines that she completely ignored and went about her business potentially infecting people, and intense arguing over every. single. routine doctor's appointment this year. (Apparently half of our the $20 copay is just too much for her even though she just bought a new luxury car).

I'm glad your kids are COVID negative though!

Stillirise

Just when I thought I'd worked through everything related to this issue, something else happened.

Last weekend, DS's friend was injured while at the stbxUPDh's place.  It was an accident that resulted in multiple fractures.

Now I'm starting to see a pattern.  I've always known his parenting and supervision were lax. However, this is the 3rd time since July that something like this has happened on his time.  He only has visitation at his place EOW, so 3 out of  his last 7 weekends, bones were broken.

I haven't wanted to be seen as the parent that tries to paint the other as neglectful, without supporting evidence.   I fully understand accidents happen, especially to adolescent boys.  I'm starting to truly be concerned, now, though.   He has requested alternating weeks during summer breaks.  I previously agreed, knowing if we go to court, with no evidence, he could likely get alternating weeks year-round.  Do I press my luck here, or expect my kids to press theirs while they are with him?!
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

Penny Lane

#11
There is no good or easy answer here. It's definitely cause for alarm but I don't know if it rises to the level that you can do anything legally. My initial thought is that three broken bones isn't going to convince the judge to not let him have every other week. So it might be somewhat not under your control. But definitely see what your lawyer thinks about how this would be perceived by the court? If the judge would find it as alarming as you do, and it would be a reason to not order 50-50, then you have more negotiating power.

I also think if you bring the safety issues up directly to your ex he's going to get defensive but he might make some changes. In our case, when DH raises an issue to BM, she will go on the attack against him - but she will often implement the specific changes that he suggests. Do you think there's something specific you could ask him to do differently? "Don't be neglectful" is hard when you don't even know the basics of parenting but "when kids are playing on the trampoline you have to check to make sure the safety net is secured" is more doable even for a PD.

What do you think will happen with the kids over the summer? Like, is he going to be staying home with them from work? Or will they be in camps? That would probably sway my decision here. I don't think I would want him with the kids for a week straight, but if they're with competent adults for five of the seven days, that's better.

I think it doesn't hurt to try pushing back on the week on week off in mediation and see where that gets you. Maybe his EOW gets extended to Thurs-Monday but it's not a full seven days. Maybe you agree to treat child support like he has the kids half time over the summer. Ideally you would figure out what he's really after (my guess is that it's not quality time with the kids, considering he's not really supervising them when he has them now). It also might embarrass him to bring up the broken bones to the mediator - I guess you'll know better than me if that works to your favor.

If he won't budge on half time over the summer, maybe brainstorm other solutions where you see the kids more frequently but he still gets what he wants? A midweek visit (although those have their own huge issues), a 5-2-2-5 schedule over the summer instead, write into the plan that the kids have to be allowed to facetime you every night?

The fallback, of course, is to continue to teach the kids skills for handling him. How to tell when something is a little hurt vs a real problem. What to do if you think you have a broken bone. Even stuff like how to make yourself food if dad leaves you home alone for long periods of time.

I'm sorry. If you don't find the perfect solution here - that's not your fault, it's probably because there is no perfect solution. I hope you can get him to agree to a better plan for the kids.

athene1399

I agree with Penny. Maybe let your L know what happened and that you are noticing a pattern and see what he/she thinks. Sometimes SO and I thought something was a big deal and the L said it legally wasn't or would be difficult to prove (which is so frustrating).

I also want to second Penny's idea of teaching your son how to handle things at his dad's. Giving the kids skills they can tap into when with the PD is helpful.

We had the opposite problem with BM and SD where BM would think SD was sicker or more injured than a doctor said. And when BM didn't like what the doctor said, she would often take SD to the Emergency Room. So we kind of had to talk to SD about how to decide if it is serious and listening to the doctor's instructions, trying that out for a bit, then if nothing got better to go back. And we tried to explain what ERs should be used for.

Stillirise

I emailed a summary of the issue to my attorney.  I haven't spoken to her about it yet, but it's on her radar. 

I knew there would be elements of this process that would require my children to grow up faster than I wanted them to have to.  These kids have already proven themselves to be so wise and resilient.  It's still hard to watch.

Thank you, PL and Athene for your wisdom, and reminder that I'm not the only person on earth dealing with a co-parent like this!
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou