Anxiety-inducing brother

Started by radish9000, August 23, 2020, 11:54:45 AM

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radish9000

Hello, I came here and started this topic: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=85596.0

I am still not sure if I got it right, and my brother is truly a narcissist, or something else is going on. I also feel like I'm exaggerating a lot of the time, that I'm being petty, maybe even childish. I just want to live my own life though, and be left alone, and stop being anxious and angry about such small unimportant petty things. Like what someone said about me. I am busy, I am studying, working, I have a girlfriend, I want to start a new life and do well. I think most adult siblings leave themselves mostly alone and live their own lives, but my brother just can't seem to get off my case. It actually doesn't make any sense at all.

I wrote a long message but not sure if I should post it. I don't want to disrespect any people here with real PD siblings. I'm still not sure if this is what is going on, and I am blaming myself for still meeting this person. All I have to do is stop meeting my brother, after all. I'll mull it over. Glad this place exists.

Basically: I try to avoid him after since meeting him gives me lots of anger and anxiety. Way too much, like, spending days arguing with him in my head, and being in a defensive mode. This is my current state. I spent an entire night lying awake tremoring from anxiety. He keeps making me start smoking. I can't get him out of my head, after every meeting with him. So then I decide I won't meet him, and I prepare in my head how I'll defend myself next time. Except the next time might be a month or several months, and by then my anxiety will subside. The next time I might be relaxed, more confident and at ease. He'll call me and act excessively sweet. "It would be so great if you came", I'll feel like "No I don't want to", but I can't say no, because he'll get start arguing and asking why or slam the phone. So I go.

Then the comments start. About suicide (I was suicidal but never said anything about it to him, I guess he heard it indirectly), about my failures, about how dumb I am, how useless I am, selfish, childish (that's his favourite right now), lazy, poor, unsuccessful, everything. I have every bad trait, in fact, everyone has only bad traits, if you listen to my brother long enough. He has all the good traits, in fact he is the best at so many things, it seems. He can't deal with any criticism, and I gave up years ago, since he'll throw aggressive tantrums at any hint of it. He's extremely controlling, loves controlling people, and seems to be quite sadistical. Very good social skills, but in private he spends most of his time gossiping about people. All his friends are "pathetic" and awful, he says.

I've had my phone on silent for a year or more now, due to this. I had so much anxiety the last 12 months, 24 months even. It is not only about him. I have GAD & suffered from depression on and off for a decade. Occasionally I'll spend weeks being anxious about something else, the focus of the anxiety shifts. But he takes up so much "brain space", that I am left feeling disgusted by myself. I hate myself for it, like I can't be myself and live my own life, someone else indirectly controls it. Sometimes I feel like, "Surely he/ they must know what they are doing, if they make me feel this bad". The other night, when I was kept awake for 40+ hours from anxiety, I read about NPD, and it fits somehow.

Right now I am in the plannin stages of moving abroad. The anxiety reached such levels the last days that I just want to sell all my belongings, move abroad and avoid my family. Not necessarily cut contact, I just don't want to meet them. I can't do anything. I can't read a book, watch a movie, study, learn, enjoy anything. It's been like this for a decade, but they keep "bringing me down". Maybe I am blaming someone else for my own problems. Not sure.

radish9000

#1
About my mother. She just messaged me with "I am sick", making me worried she was dying (really). But it's just a cold. I guess I heard about "pity narcissists" or something, but I haven't read about it. My mother doesn't really cause problems in my life, right now, and I care about her. I feel sorry for her mostly. But she's very self-pitying and cries at any criticism, meanwhile ignoring any problems other people have. Still, I can't be too angry at her, and she doesn't really cause anyone harm.

When I was younger, I and all my siblings had serious disciplinary & emotional issues in school. We were all among the worst-behaved and worst-performing students at school. We all dropped out of high school. Took drugs, drank at school, were thrown out, lots of problems. By the time I (the youngest) went to the same school (small town), everyone knew who I was. "Oh it's X's younger brother", or "Another [Surname], I knew your sister" (like something out of Harry Potter), etc. Yet, my mother was a teacher and an upstanding member of society. She kept up appearances really well, and mostly blamed me when things happened, or was worried what people would think of us. I can't speak for my siblings, as I am much younger than them, and don't know what happened for them.

Later on, I got bullied due to a physical disease or disability of sorts. I wanted to fix it, but did not know how. I asked my parents for help but was told they have too many problems, my dad was terminally ill. His illness made me develop a completely nihilistic/ apathetic outlook. My siblings told me I was making things up, exaggerating, pathetic, shut up, etc. At that time my siblings were long gone, moved out and never talked to me, which is ok, what 20-somethings wants to talk to their teenage brother? This is when I dropped out of high school, and was met with even more criticism and anger from my family.

I feel/ felt like my mother despised me for letting the family down, shaming them, letting her down. Yet I got no encouragement, or advice, or assistance. I had to beg so hard to be taken to a doctor, but there was no help. Of course I should have tried harder, I was 15-16 and older (the disease/problem persisted), but I was depressed. Also, my teachers had all told me to drop out, I was bringing everyone down, ruining the morale of other students by sleeping in class and skipping 30% of classes. I remember at meeting with my mother at school, they said I should change schools to a specific type of school where mostly "artsy"/ "weird" people study. My mother cried and told me I need to show them I'm not a loser, so I tried harder for a while, but my "disability" persisted, and people bullied me more and more, teachers did nothing.

I'm sorry for talking so much about myself. I just thought maybe someone could recognise patterns in my story, have a similar story, give me a different perspective. I struggle to understand anything really.

guitarman

I do not know for certain what condition my uBPD/NPD sister should be diagnosed with. I have talked to mental health professionals about her and they informed me about BPD, also known as EUPD Emotional Unstable Personality Disorder.

I am not a mental health professional so I can't diagnose what mental health condition my sister is living with.

What you are experiencing is important, not only what condition your brother should be diagnosed with. A diagnosis can be useful so you can find out more about what you are having to cope with and how to react better.

As I posted before I have found the counsellor and author Kris Godinez very helpful. She specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome. She identifies herself as a target of abuse because of the way her father behaved towards her. Her YouTube channel is called "We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez". She talks about addressing the original wound of abuse and building your self esteem. She has a book list on her Facebook page about Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome.

Your mother sounds very much like my sister with her waif-like physical health issues. She often tells me that she is going to die at any moment and that I will be to blame.

It seems that your feelings have not been validated and dismissed for a long time. No wonder that you feel anxious.

It would benefit you to see a counsellor. I hope that you are able to.

Keep strong. Keep posting. You are not alone.
"Do not let the behaviour of others destroy your inner peace." - Dalai Lama

"You don't have to be a part of it, you can become apart from it." - guitarman

"Be gentle with yourself, you're doing the best you can." - Anon

"If it hurts it isn't love." - Kris Godinez, counsellor and author

radish9000

Quote from: guitarman on August 23, 2020, 01:42:19 PM
(...)

Your mother sounds very much like my sister with her waif-like physical health issues. She often tells me that she is going to die at any moment and that I will be to blame.

When did your sister become like that? I am guessing she became more extreme over the years. I took the liberty to look at your post history, in order to find out your story. I see you're in your 50s or so. I don't think my mother is that extreme but yes. Her mother was like that during her last years, she called my mother and complained that she was abandoned, and she -- as I understand it -- had severe cognitive decline from anger/ bitterness/ depression, refusing to do anything. I don't know the cause of death.

Quote from: guitarman on August 23, 2020, 01:42:19 PM
It seems that your feelings have not been validated and dismissed for a long time. No wonder that you feel anxious.

It would benefit you to see a counsellor. I hope that you are able to.

Keep strong. Keep posting. You are not alone.

Thanks.

DistanceNotDefense

Hi Radish! Welcome to the forum. :wave: By the way, radishes are delicious. I'm in my early 30's and trying to make a lot of sense of my own family and their behaviors at this time, too.

I just read both your threads. It seems that you have a real struggle with figuring out how to define your brother's behavior, instead of simply looking at the effects of what he does to you (though there's nothing wrong with trying to define it, though 🙂).

One poster here gave me invaluable advice: whether or not the person misusing or abusing you is clearly diagnosable, already diagnosed, or not, Personality Disorders work on a spectrum. Some folks can have tendencies that run anywhere from subtle to full-blown and don't merit diagnosis. Some people can be both empathetic AND narcissistic. (Many narcissists also switch to being empathetic on a whim because they would be found out otherwise.) Plus, personality disorders are highly under-diagnosed because PDs don't seek help, they don't think there's anything wrong with them.  What matters is how they effect you. You take that and you work with that.

Another thing is that we can be really foggy about and underestimate the ability our brains have to "normalize" certain behaviors and occurrences in order to survive. That is a HUGE thing with me and I'm still slowly unwrapping layers of guilt and denial around myself and how I see things, and UNLEARNING a lot. If your young child brain fully absorbed the "truth" of how awful your familial relationships were, you wouldn't have survived....so your brain slowly trains you to accept what you get, until you start unpacking it all later....

....and it's when you get older that you start realizing things aren't quite right. You get in relationships or look around you at how other families work and you start putting the pieces together, that healthy people don't act this way. The guilt, shame, thinking "it must be my fault", and even attempts to pick away at the possibility you're being abused? To downplay it....say "well they couldn't be diagnosed..." Etc. All of these are continued attempts by your brain to justify treatment of you so you can survive. EXCEPT... you've outgrown this survival tactic! You don't need it anymore. It's just a neurological emotional pathway that can be retrained. The very fact you're here on this forum is evidence that a more conscious part of you is trying to break free of it.

No one deserves to be up all night spinning with anxiety and imagining what their sibling may say, do, or not do to hurt them. Regardless of labels, that's behavior that is abusive. I've been there (and I am there still, sometimes) that you have every right to take yourself out of, no matter what it takes and no matter what approach you decide for protecting yourself.

And before you pick it apart further and say "well I wasn't physically or sexually abused so I have it good, I have nothing to complain about," that's also very untrue and part of an emotionally abused brain trying to survive, downplaying to suppress shock and overwhelm (and a big indicator of CPTSD which I was diagnosed with). Emotional abuse has had the worst effect of all on my life compared to the other types of abuse I experienced. It's different for everyone, but the agony of the neglect, gaslighting, minimizing, bullying, controlling, the emotional flashbacks, etc. is a worse pain I carry in my body compared to my memories of PA/SA that come up. And anyways, scientists have found that the receptors of emotional pain are the same as those for physical pain. EA's affects are the gift that keeps on giving. They're the scars that keep you lonely, isolated, doubting yourself, and afraid to connect or build trust because of what your FOO did to you, even long after the abuse is over.

You're going to find some amazing support here radish. Welcome and let's fight this fog together.  :yes:

nanotech

#5
Welcome Radish sweetheart!  :wave:
Wow just take a deep breath. You've taken your first steps toward coming Out of the FOG.
You're only just emerging, which is why you are feeling so confused and disorientated.
Don't doubt it, you need to be here. If you are staying up like that at night and having imaginary conversations with brother, then yes you have been abused.
They get away with it because we don't want to admit it ourselves, that there is abuse in our family and we that we are wounded and suffering as a result.
Your brother's sweet talk to get you to family meals is called hoovering. The 'niceness' is then followed by the abuse you have described.
Shame is a big tool of theirs. I have had Shame poured on me from a great height. I have siblings who did this for years.
My parents too.
Then through understanding about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline PD I began to work out that no matter what I did, I was going to be blamed and shamed!
I'm non -contact with most of them now. It helps a lot. I had to realise that I couldn't resolve the relationships. I just had to set boundaries to prevent any further abuse.
It irks them. But what can they  do? They can't frogmarch me to family events.   :tongue2:
The first thing to do is to look in the mirror and say hi to the new you. Give your self permission to be happy, to like yourself, and to understand that you don't necessarily  need the love of your family of origin.( See KrisGodinez and Jerry Wise on YouTube).
There are lots of emotionally healthy people out there in the world.
:smug:
When we are small and abuse happens, our brains tend for our own survival ( we need food and a roof) to look for the good in our parents and to minimise the bad.We are in survival mode.  This sets a dysfunctional pattern which enables the abuse to grow and flourish. When we leave the home our abusers want it to continue. They get THEIR self esteem from an unhealthy and damaging source, by putting others down. As long as they can criticise and denigrate others, then they can feel okay with themselves. They are locked into creating these unhealthy patterns.
We are locked into reacting to them. Reaction is what they feed on.
No amount of explaining and reasoning with them will ever stop their abuse. They are personality disordered. We can't change them but we can keep them at arms length.
It's a tough cookie to swallow, but there it is. Read up in the toolbox about how not to JADE and how to practise GREY ROCK and Medium Chill.
Take care! This forum is fantastic! Remember that you are good enough, just as you are.
In functional families kids are loved unconditionally. I didn't have that, but I do know how to give it. Scapegoated children are often the most emotionally healthy, and we have empathy. We just need to point it in the right direction.

radish9000

Thanks for your comments. I read them and I'll come back to re-read them for strength.

It's been crazy the last weeks, and the thing is, it's nothing new. This is a pathological level of worrying and anxiety. I have been thinking about my brother (obtrusive thoughts) for a week straight, all day long. Really all day long. A minute or two after I wake up, it starts, uncontrollably. I don't know what this is, it's very awful. It's been like this many times, he has turned into my main source of anxiety especially since I met my girlfriend 16 months ago or so (since I met her, some of my other anxieties went away).

This is maybe the third or fourth or fifth period like this the last year. The only way I have of stopping it, is to meet my brother and to feel like we are friends. As long as I feel like we are enemies, I cannot relax. I feel awful, like he's trained me to be like this, intentionally or not. I don't feel this bad if I've argued with my mother, or sisters, or anyone else, only him. Because he controls people around him with anger & other feelings. It makes me feel pathetic too. The easiest way to stop this anxiety would be to call him and ask to meet and think "We're such nice friends", or to cut contact. Last summer I tried, I blocked him everywhere, but as we had not had a fight or anything recently (only his toxic remarks) I felt I didn't have enough of a reason, and felt guilty. Now I don't answer the phone, no sound. Don't check any channels.

The last years he's become obsessed with "being adult", it's something he talks about every time I meet him. People are childish all around him, he's not childish, people are irresponsible, pathetic, etc, at least he is responsible, without him the world would be in disarray. He likes to call me childish and thinks he should raise me. I believe he tells his friends and my family how awful it is for him to have such a younger brother than he has to raise because of our dead father. How awful my behaviour is, etc. I gave up JADEing about "you're childish" remarks ages ago, it would just make me look childish anyway, and then he wins.

I am not concerned with behaving childishly, I identify with whoever said "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.". The last part, who gives a ****? Trying to appear "very grown up" is actually something children do. See... he's bringing me down to his petty level by making me even care. I feel so petty and pathetic for writing about this, but I argue with him in my head every single minute. I was on the phone with my girlfriend, and in the middle of a sentence I stopped talking because I remembered something rude he had said years ago. This has always been the problem. I've always had my own interests and I set high standards for myself. No games or TV or stuff like that, I want to learn things and be productive, and not care about gossip and such things. But he keeps bringing me down to his level, and making me obsess over things he says. I don't want to spend hours and hours and hours every day thinking about what people have said about me, or think about me. I want to live my own life.


radish9000

I'm feeling more emboldened, reassured, self-assured and determined as I read articles and watch videos on this topic. I saw a guy on youtube talking about his NPD brother and the kinds of things he does. Specifically, winding him up and then blaming him for getting annoyed/ angry. So relatable. My greatest fear now is that I will once again forget this, deny it, focus on the good things, and try to be friends again. I tried that for 20 years now, literally, and it doesn't work. It just makes me hate myself so much that I want to hurt myself, makes me feel disgusting for letting someone walk all over me.

Something that popped up once more: I have a history of paranoia/ psychosis, but haven't had problems with it for years. Now that I am trying to learn and plan how to deal with my brother, this "magical thinking" is coming back. What if he knows, what if he will try to stop me, maybe he's surveilling me. I feel like that is sort of telling... I don't know. Maybe I am truly an overgrown child and I'm misunderstanding my situation.

guitarman

You are learning new techniques and becoming more assertive. You are learning to recognise and talk more about your own feelings which probably you are not used to. Little by little things will change for you. It takes time.

Often people get triggered by remembering and confronting traumatic past events. They may feel worse until they feel better. So please be aware of that. It would be wise to find a mental health professional who would be able to help support you at this time.

It's not easy to learn to change and do things differently. It's difficult to change patterns of behaviour and thinking that may have been continuing for years, maybe even decades. I know. It's difficult to find peace if you've experienced abuse and trauma for a long time. You won't be used to it.

Be gentle with yourself, you are doing the best you can.
"Do not let the behaviour of others destroy your inner peace." - Dalai Lama

"You don't have to be a part of it, you can become apart from it." - guitarman

"Be gentle with yourself, you're doing the best you can." - Anon

"If it hurts it isn't love." - Kris Godinez, counsellor and author

Starboard Song

Radish,

You are getting so many good voices here. I hope we can help. But there is something else you need right away: to invest in confidants from your FOC. You need one or two people who can be your confidants, selected from your Family of Choice. Confidants will listen hard and give hard news. They'll be patient when you seem to backslide, and firm when you need a push. Your FOC confidants may not include your girlfriend. You may not want to really open up all of this to her. Or maybe you do.

The point is that this is your choice, but I highly recommend a very trusted person IRL with whom you can share and on whom you can trust. It needn't be a secret from everyone else. But I've been there. I ranted for months about my in-laws. I remember the look in the eyes of people who were over it, and didn't want to hear it. I remember realizing that I needed to focus my detailed and in-depth sharing with only very key people of trust.

It's been said: you are beginning a journey. And it feels like waking up to early, groggy and in the dark. But you are going to be ok.

Starboard
Radical Acceptance, by Brach   |   Self-Compassion, by Neff    |   Mindfulness, by Williams   |   The Book of Joy, by the Dalai Lama and Tutu
Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

radish9000

#10
Thanks Starboard and guitarman.

I guess the problem is that I have zero (0) real life friends. I mainly have my girlfriend, who is great. I think that's why these things are so hard for me to ignore. I study (online during covid...) and work remotely. With friends I would have more confidence, I'd meet them and feel good about myself and I wouldn't care what some awful person says about me.

I felt better for one day or so, but yesterday I started feeling bad again, a bit, and today. Not too bad. I feel stressed because I don't know when he will contact me again. Phone is muted, no vibration. I ignore his calls. I also ignore him on Facebook (I'll remove that one day). Still I feel anxious about it, I am preparing to defend myself. Usually I don't. At some point I stopped defending myself, like I was broken, and it makes me feel worthless. But I don't defend myself against any rude comments, really.

Starboard Song

Radish,

This is a terrible time to be dealing with this. The pandemic response exacerbates everything you face.

Please promise yourself to move slow. Think about good. Think about love.

You are going to get through this.

If you haven't, check out our Toolbox. Look at other posts on this board. Maybe, just maybe, seeing that you are not alone can be of help.

You are not alone.
Radical Acceptance, by Brach   |   Self-Compassion, by Neff    |   Mindfulness, by Williams   |   The Book of Joy, by the Dalai Lama and Tutu
Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

LemonLime

Sorry if I missed anything in your post, Radish.  But I want to add that it is important to consider medications that might help you.
Many people have been helped by medications that allow them to think more clearly and be able to effectively get therapy.

They've helped me tremendously and maybe they can help you too.
All my best  :bighug:

DistanceNotDefense

Hi radish9000 - it's so great to see you piecing together a mapwork of your emotions. That you're starting to see the treatment for what it is and a part of you (some people call it the higher self, though I think you can call it whatever you want) is starting to surface and take care/protect you against how this treatment feels, despite the obligation and guilt that comes with finally stepping away.

On a less extreme level (though it feels REALLY intense some days) I feel the same paranoia and fear you describe (it's definitely the F part of FOG!) I feel sometimes like my family might swoop out of nowhere and catch me off guard, even though logically I know they can't and wouldn't do that (I'd hope, we'll see...geez, even thinking about it makes my heart race). I get caught up in my head about what they're saying about me right now that I've blocked calls, texts, email, and social media, and how that's probably being manufactured into a major attack against the family while my side of the story continues to be buried. I think about how much this probably hurts them (but make sure to redirect that care back to myself, as I've been hurt far worse by them). I worry about the future and how if I ever had contact again how much this would be used as ammo, forever, to keep me feeling guilty. It's all the more reason to maintain my distance and keep LC/NC for now, and continue building a strong barrier without them in my life....and if I do peep out for communication from time to time, know how to shut that door quickly again if there's any possibility of harm toward myself.

But like you, I realize that when I'm around friends and FOC, I'm much freer to be me and all the traits and qualities I've nurtured over the years. That's certainly a feeling to hold onto and explore. Take care of yourself radish9000.  :)

Stardust1982

Hi radish9000.

Yep, your brother is a true narcissist (or possibly Borderline). But hey, what does it matter the label we put on these people? They're just not safe to have around. Good for you for planning to move abroad and be away from your family. I did this too and it was the best decision ever.
You're not exaggerating, nothing is wrong with you. You seem very kind and healthy when it comes to thinking and behavior.
The problem is that you let your toxic family and your PD brother create a definition of you that's less than desirable.
Have you read 'Stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist?' In the book, the author says that we adult children of PDs take on the definition of the PD parent or family member and start believing we are indeed like they portray us. That's just bullshit. When you take distance from these people, (meaning, you exit the enmeshment they've forced you to be in), you realize how kind and wonderful you truly are.

Ask yourself: are normal people you see outside your family treating you well? Do they constantly fight with you, do they call you names? Your girlfriend for ex..I assume not. Because us, normal people only have problems with borderlines/narcissists. The way we act with them is soo much different from how we act around ordinary people at work for example. That's because of the PDs and not us. We even take on the traits of the PDs we're enmeshed with to cope with the insanity they put us through (guilt, blaming, manipulation, controlling, fear, anxiety etc).

I also have two brothers who I suspect have either traits of NPD or are full-blown NPD. (one has at least). I do not interact with them, we have a very superficial relationship and that's by choice. They defend our parents and blame me for any problem in the family when I instill boundaries (LC or NC). They cannot or do not want to see the toxicity in their own parents but I don't really care since I'm not close to them and they'll certainly not be part of my future (unless they'll go NC too).

I wish you well, remember that you are very normal and your brother is not. It's just f''ed up to go around bullying people. Bullies have a lot of unprocessed trauma-but that's not on us, it's on them.

xoxo

September1234

Hello Radish. I'm new here, but what you wrote spoke so deeply to me. The fear, ongoing hours and hours of anxiety and replaying discussions in my head. I've had that all. To this day even.
I just wanted you to know that you're not alone in this, the complete confusion and guilt surrounding the abuser eats away at me too. I liked how you put into words the thinking that "knowing we are enemies worries me so much more than feeling we're friends". I know I've done my share of pleading and apologizing to just go back to the comfort of "being friends", even if it meant allowing all the abuse again. Becoming enemies terrified me. It still does.

I hope you've been able to deal with this better (as much as you can), and sending you well wishes. :)