An apology from a PD spouse - is it for real?

Started by WearyHusband, July 15, 2021, 08:04:42 PM

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WearyHusband

I suspect my wife of 20 years has BPD or NPD - undiagnosed but several of the dynamics are there. (Thus driving me to this forum in my long quest for an anchor of reality in the FOG of our relationship.)

One thing that came up in my personal therapy recently was focused on identifying my magical thinking about our relationship - thinking if I just apologize enough, empathize enough, learn enough, do enough, etc. our relationship will get better. It only gets worse, and we're to the point that I finally moved to the spare bedroom four months ago to protect myself from her continual verbal and emotional abuse. My wife is completely baffled why, as she denies saying or acting in ways that are so vindictive and hurtful. It's crazy making. We've also been sexless for multiple month periods the last four years at her insistence/denial of all physical touch. No hugging. No hand holding - nothing. (In the past, I responded by acquiescing and placating and pursuing her to the point that we finally reunited sexually. I realized in this latest round of drama that I have been a Codependent in the relationship, and I need to stop placating along with a bunch of other toxic ways of relating that I've developed from my own past and brokenness to cope.)

Anyway, back to the magical thinking. One exercise my therapist recommended I do to get out of magical thinking and accept the reality of my relationship is to think back on all the times my wife has genuinely apologized for something hurtful she has said or done. I could think of just a handful of times in 20 years, and only one of them was for something genuinely hurtful that was facilitated during a past marriage therapy session about 8 years ago (which she did not want to continue together. She's exited marriage therapy several times whenever a therapist begins gently prodding at her past sexual abuse and her hypervigilant responses as well as the effects of a chaotic upbringing and abandonment by her parents).

Recently, my wife asked me what I want from her. I told her, "One thing that would be really helpful to me in our relationship is if you were wrong sometimes. I don't want a perfect person. I want you to realize that we're two flawed people working on a mutually supportive relationship. When we argue, we can both take responsibility for wrongs - it doesn't always have to be black and white. And it's really meaningful when you own your part of the relationship and apologize if you say or do something hurtful."

She responded by saying, "What are you talking about? You don't see me accurately. You don't know me or understand me at all. It's a core value for me to take responsibility for my actions. I've apologized to you hundreds of times. I always take responsibility for my actions."

I sat in stunned silence.

I've noticed that since I've started to set boundaries and told her I need time to consider if I can stay in this relationship, she's softened just a teeny teeny bit.

So, to the question in my subject line. This morning, my wife asked to speak with me.

She said, "I'm genuinely trying to show that I care and love you. I know that I've hurt you in our marriage and I feel sad about that. I want to apologize."

I was thankful and it was really good to hear those words, but I was cautious.

I said, "I really appreciate that. Can you tell me something you've done that's been hurtful?"

She responded, "Well, why don't you tell me one thing I've done - not a big thing. Not a general pattern. Just a small thing I've done. Because I don't remember several things you say I've done and won't apologize for them - they didn't happen." (Which just baffles me. It's like I keep trying to be logical and rational, study the differences between men and women and how they connect and communicate - but all the "normal" tools for relationships work occasionally, but then prove futile. It's like I'm dealing with some bizarre alien logic from another dimension that's constantly changing).

Anyway, after awhile, we got to one incident that I don't need to go into detail about. Something she said and did that was hurtful. She responded by apologizing for it. For the first time in a long time, I felt like I was being treated like a human by my wife. I felt hopeful. I felt cared for and respected.

Has anyone else had experiences with seeing your partner "turn a corner" with taking responsibility for how their actions affect you? With apologizing? My therapist told me that when someone with her background can actually apologize for something, it's a sign of great progress. However, I'm also aware from extensive reading that sometimes when a Codependent sets boundaries, the person with narcissism or other PD can start a new act without really changing.

Grateful for any insights or other's experiences.

SonofThunder

#1
WearyHusband,

I'm sorry you are experiencing all that from your wife.  My wife has apologized in the past, but she then goes right back to her PD ways.  Typically in my experiences with her, any apology or good behavior is a hoovering attempt, and especially now that my wife knows I have very protective boundaries.  I have been using MC and noJADE for a few years and so she recognizes that I'm not taking her PD drama bait.   

Imo, I personally do not believe my wife's apologies are real.  When my kids were growing up, I knew they were developing well and learning when they were corrected and then did not repeat their error.  My uPDw keeps repeating and any apologies now just fall on my MC/noJADE deaf ears.  I am kind and tell her "thank you" for the apology, but I then let her words just float downstream, because in a short while, her next floodwaters come raging around the bend. 

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

WearyHusband

#2
SonofThunder, thank you for the response. I'm still a little "shell shocked" finally starting to realize the reality of what I'm dealing with. At the same time, things are finally making a little sense after so many years of confusion, pain, and exasperation.

I'm new here and still am figuring out all the acronyms.
MC? noJADE? uPDw?
Is there an acronym key anywhere?
[Edit: Nevermind, just found the Acronym page]

WearyHusband

#3
Found the acronym page

SonofThunder

#4
WearyHusband,

Glad you found the acronym page.  I highly recommend you spend time in the toolbox section of this Out of the FOG website.  I want to personally recommend the tools of

MC=medium chill. 
NoJADE
51% rule
50% rule
Boundaries on yourself.

Medium chill and the tool of noJADE work with each other together in order to prevent circular and escalating conversations/confrontations from occurring.  When you respond to your wife, try to do so in a neutral calm manner (MC) and if possible, a non-opinionated manner, just like one of her girlfriends would respond to her on a sensitive subject.  Using your top post as an example:

"She responded by saying, "What are you talking about? You don't see me accurately. You don't know me or understand me at all. It's a core value for me to take responsibility for my actions. I've apologized to you hundreds of times. I always take responsibility for my actions."

This response by her is JADE bait.  So was the "What do you want from me" and you took that bait.  So, shes dangling the baited hook again, in circular fashion to get deeper in the confrontation with which PD's feed.   She's trying to put you in the off-balance, defensive position so you will try and J=justify why you said your response, A= argue your point of view, D=defend your statement, or E= explain yourself deeper/further, all of which heightens the confrontation and keeps the confrontation going. 

You may want to think about MC neutral responses that aren't repetitive but work well.  Your responses should convey 1. I heard you. 2. I understand what you said.  3. I care about you.  4. I do not care to discuss this further and/or we can agree to disagree. 

With that in mind, it's good sometimes to repeat back what the PD said (#1 and #2).  "I'm sorry you believe that I don't see you accurately and don't believe you take responsibility for your actions.  I don't desire to discuss this further and choose to simply agree to disagree." (#3 and 4)  (All in a calm MC manner). 

When she fires back a heated response because you did not take the  JADE bait, your predetermined boundary will kick in.  (Quickly In your mind you will remind yourself of the boundary of "I will not stand in front of my wife and be berated, therefore when she repeatedly criticizes my choices for myself, I will leave the discussion.")

Said out loud to herm " I don't desire to discuss further on this topic so I'm going in another room/on a drive/on a walk, to be alone." 

And then immediate go, and don't wait for her to respond.  Just leave her standing there.  If she follows, repeat calmly (MC) out loud that you desire to be alone (don't say "don't follow me" as you are focusing on controlling only yourself=proper boundaries).

So, MC and noJADE work together with boundaries (controlling your own reactions and actions, not trying to control your wife's) to help bring her emotional charged JADE'd fishing trips to a quick end. 

The 51% rule says you will care for your wife, but you will care for yourself 1 percent more (49/51).   This keeps you healthy.  Airlines rules for oxygen are just this:  "put the mask on yourself (adult) and then children and back again.  If not, the children will keep it on themselves only and dad becomes useless or lifeless.  51% keeps everyone alert and well. 

50% rule keeps us from taking revenge.  We adults have adult rights and you chose your wife and choose to remain with her (currently) so you are 50% responsible for all the crap you have to put up with.  You can walk away so you have that option.  Therefore taking revenge is a bad choice, as it hurts another vs protects yourself. 

Again, spend some time in the toolbox is my recommendation, and think back to conversations where you could have used the tools to shorten time spent and reduce emotions.  Practice these in your mind over and over so you are ready when the next hook dangles in your face.

SoT

Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

blunk

Wearyhusband, I am so sorry that you are going through this. I was married for 16 years to a man diagnosed with BPD. While I certainly can't diagnose, I see a lot of similarities between his behavior and what you describe about your wife. There was one line in your post that really struck a chord with me.

Quote from: WearyHusband on July 15, 2021, 08:04:42 PM
I've noticed that since I've started to set boundaries and told her I need time to consider if I can stay in this relationship, she's softened just a teeny teeny bit.

I fear that your wife is sensing the distance between you, and facing the reality that you may leave the relationship, and is saying what she thinks that you want to hear. This is backed up by the fact that, when asked to tell you what she was sorry for, she did not have an answer. And also. that when you mention hurtful things that she has done/said, she denies them.

I went through much of the same. At one point my x stood up and raged screamed in my face. When I said I would not be screamed at that way and attempted to leave the room, he denied having even having raised his voice. It was completely baffling.

One of the more common traits of those with BPD is a fear of abandonment. At least with my xh, when he sensed that I had reached my limit and started to pull away, that was when he started on his best behavior. Even after I told him that I wanted a divorce and asked him to move out, he would try to say things to prove that he had changed. Unfortunately, it never lasted long, especially when I held my ground and didn't take him back. After that, it didn't take long before he was back to raging, name calling, blaming, threatening, and gaslighting.

I feel that if you give in and go back to "normal" she may revert back to the same patterns. One of my favorite sayings from these boards is that the best apology is changed behavior. Words don't mean a lot, and they are easy to throw out there, especially when they aren't backed up by actions. Again, I can't diagnose, and I certainly don't know your whole situation, that is just my impression based on limited information.

I wish you well on this journey, please keep us posted on your progress.

tragedy or hope

WearyH,
When I recognized the behaviors used to keep me in my place by my unpdh, I determined I will decide what happens in this "relationship." This to me means I can have serenity if I can keep in mind my spouse is not capable of what I expect. Realizing his limitations caused me to have to decide with each incident, "how important is it?" I have few but pick my boundaries and when and where I will speak up.

When someone is irrational, it would be the same as being under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I don't try to reason. How important is it to you to be right that she is unapologetic? She does not feel the need to take responsibility for what you see as offensive.

This leaves you do decide how you will take care of yourself. I often wonder where we get the message that we should all live like a happily ever after movie. No one does. If they tell you they do, there is probably something they have yet to acknowledge.

Work on your own life. Reframe the PD in your mind as ill, unable to behave in a relationship the way you expect. I do not believe that PD's are throw away people... we can still live our own lives, possibly redefined.

There was/is something about this woman that you found desirable. She is also still that person. Our thoughts determine our actions. My unpdh rarely apologizes. So what. That's on him. I have friends, faith and this forum to regroup.

I have observed that often I can create a crisis in my attempt to take care of "the relationship" which may have been absolutely unnecessary. Pick your battles.
IE I create my own suffering.

Expectations are planned disappointments. Keep coming back to this forum.. Much wisdom and practical suggestions here. Take good care of yourself. PDs tend to syphon the life out of us.

"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

WearyHusband

SoT, thank you for your reply. Seriously, I'm very grateful, and your advice is incredibly helpful. I am beginning to look for ways "I am taking the bait" and looking further at MChill and noJADE techniques. I actually used noJADE tonight after reading your reply earlier. As my wife became confrontational and aggressive and began asking baiting questions, I stopped my reaction and pondered, "Ok, don't justify myself. Don't argue. Don't defend myself. Don't explain." Then I came up with a medium chill response. She continued to push and was irritable and asking more baiting questions. I said, "I'm not comfortable continuing to talk right now." I walked away and the conversation ended, rather than escalating into a heated argument.

I'm grateful that I am learning ways to create an escape route.

Sigh. so much to learn.

Empie2204

WearyHusband, it makes me sad to read what you are experiencing.
At the same time, it brings memories...
What I have learned is the same thing the posters here pointed to: when a PD senses there is a change in you or you start to apply boundaries, he/she becomes super observant and adjusts to the situation.
They feel the danger and will do anything to avoid it.
Hearing "i am sorry" from them would mean something only if it comes out of the blue. I know that I have asked an apology from my uPDh and sometimes I got it, sometimes not.
The few times I got it I was in the clouds thinking that he finally starts to see what was wrong.
So, if the apology is in any way forced (by us who want it), it is fake and worthless.
If I did wrong to someone, I am not going to wait for that person to ask my apology.

Stay strong!  :bighug:





SonofThunder

#9
Quote from: WearyHusband on July 17, 2021, 12:24:00 AM
SoT, thank you for your reply. Seriously, I'm very grateful, and your advice is incredibly helpful. I am beginning to look for ways "I am taking the bait" and looking further at MChill and noJADE techniques. I actually used noJADE tonight after reading your reply earlier. As my wife became confrontational and aggressive and began asking baiting questions, I stopped my reaction and pondered, "Ok, don't justify myself. Don't argue. Don't defend myself. Don't explain." Then I came up with a medium chill response. She continued to push and was irritable and asking more baiting questions. I said, "I'm not comfortable continuing to talk right now." I walked away and the conversation ended, rather than escalating into a heated argument.

I'm grateful that I am learning ways to create an escape route.

Sigh. so much to learn.

Excellent work WearyHusband!  That was perfect!  I promise you that like all difficult things that require quick thought, it gets easier the more you practice, both in real life events, such as that, and also, running scenarios in your mind in advance. 

The more you learn about PD's, PD traits in general, the more you will begin to notice your wife revealing patterns of action/reaction.  Therefore, you will also be able to predict potential actions/reactions, which will help you mentally prepare your own Medium Chill and noJADE reactions/actions in advance. 

The ability to predict PD behaviors will also allow you to make decisions in advance (boundaries on yourself and others in your responsibility circle) on what you will/will-not participate in and also some adjustments in the participation itself (boundaries again) , that help minimize the predictable PD actions/reactions you have to deal with. 

Your continued education, practice and planning using boundaries, will assist in reducing the frequency, intensity and duration of the PD traits you deal with, which outside of separation/divorce, is the best scenario for yourself and others while in a marriage to a PD.  Also, a word of caution so you know it's expected; the more success you have using the tools and protecting yourself, the more you may feel that emotional 'distance' widening between you and your spouse, but know it's simply a result of what is necessary to live with a PD and to protect yourself. For that reason, if you are a person who desires adult interaction, consider using boundaries to also provide yourself some social time without your spouse, with some healthy male friends and hobbies that you have, that your spouse will not participate.  Some people experience a deepening loneliness when effectively using the toolbox.  I am not one who needs a lot of adult interaction, but I surely do experience the analogy of just having a 'roommate' vs a wife. 

It's a real shame all of us here have to deal with PD's all the work involved to protect ourselves. It seems they just get a wide berth to inflict mayhem, but I am surely grateful that it's not me with the PD, as dealing with what must go on in their own minds, and the internal aftermaths of their own relationship destruction, is the worst of the two negatives imo. 

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

1footouttadefog

You know them by the fruit they bare, not just words.

You can be caitiously hopeful a corner has been turned, it this might just be a very measured caving in, in response to your boundaries.

Time will tell.  Stay stay strong and continue working on you in the meantime.  If you see no change I. Behavior, you will know the value of the apology.

tragedy or hope

 :like: SoT's description of what it feels like once we set boundaries. So true. Very glad to see this addressed. At first it kind of feels like death but was merely the death of MY imagined relationship when all the while unpdh knew what he wanted from it.

It does feel really weird to seem so distant. Unpdh is content. Maybe thinks he has won his battle to consume my life by me not taking the bait. Hard not to feel superior because I know exactly what is going on. It's like movie rerun on every level.

One thing I add, addressing inappropriate behavior has more to do with you than them. It is a very important step in continuing to value yourself more than them. You see what YOU see, hear what YOU hear, regardless of how they try to gaslight. If I do not make myself clear, unpdh goes into phase 2 of his mistreatment. I stop it at the beginning and do as SoT says... walk away, go for a walk etc. I do not discuss. It is for MYSELF that I speak up, not for the "relationship," Since unpdh thinks he is defining it
in his terms. I can say this.... there is really no WE as I had for years thought. Not a bad thing but a dream and not reality. IMO it's impossible for unpdh to fit me into his "I" of which he thinks I am absorbed.

"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

SonofThunder

#12
Tragedy, so true about the movie rerun, and each IDD cycle, the growing predictability is a reality of what you stated "there is really no WE as I had for years thought".  Mentally, I have to settle in each time that I can't change the channel or turn the TV off, so I have to go about my own life with the movie on in the background and at best try to keep the sound as low as possible.  Such a good analogy Tragedy, of the way it becomes once the toolbox is second nature for us to protect ourselves as best possible. 

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

YellowTail

Hello Wearyhusband,
I just wanted to wish you well and everyone else who contributed.  The points raised have been so helpful.  I have to head home now from work and face my husband.  Last night he hurt me so bad that I feel numb at the moment but that won't last.  I'm determined not to cry tho....I've done enough of that.  He apologized for his behaviour and I believe he is sorry but he has little insight into his temper which is brought on by feeling hard done by and dis-respected (his recurring complaint).  I will exercise non jading.  My head is in such a muddle I had forgotten about that tool.
I usually post under No contact with Parent (12 months now), but now I am realising that my husband has similar traits to my NF.  We're married over 30 years and I've lived in fantasy land about what our marriage actually is.  He's not a bad person but he's very hard work.  I'm just tired of it all.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you.  It means a lot to be able to share on this site and get good advise.
:)

tragedy or hope

Oh Yellow Tail,
That really hurts. For years before I understood PD behavior, my heart was broken over and over. I cried, I prayed, I suffered, I wondered, I tried to think about my own behaviors (not a bad start) I read, I joined self help groups, I tried new skills, I read books, I looked at videos etc.

Only one thing works for me, facing the sad reality of what kind of situation I am in and taking care of me in it. For women I wonder if it is harder to face this because we do expect love since when we married, we made a promise in our own minds but so did they and it was not what we thought.

We became "possessions" of a kind a clear thinking person would not imagine. You will get through this, and if you use the tools, things can get better for you. However and most unfortunate... the pain will be there. Do what you need to do to comfort yourself. Be good to you. Each time my unpdh is in his moments, I think about something that will give me joy and do it.

Freshen up the decor of a room, go buy a new plant, enjoy a day trip alone or with a friend, do research on something I will never share with him... etc. This is the hard part because their cruelty can make us impotent to our own capabilities for pleasure and self comfort.

I know also how hard it is to continue in a daily routine with others while feeling absolutely crushed and deeply sad. It is a hard act. Find someone in your life you trust with your soul and "spill the beans" on your H. He does not deserve protection of his cruelty to you. You get to feel better however that looks to you.

My heart goes out to you for the many many days in my life I suffered after the fact while unpdh was happily going about his business. I learned the suffering is not worth it.
"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

Mary

T/H wrote, "I do not believe that PD's are throw away people... "

I'm having a really hard time with this one right now. It feels a little like when I first came Out of the FOG; I don't know why I'm pining for the "us". I know better. Maybe that's just it. I know better. Without this knowledge, I would be thinking right now in our relationship things are on the up and up and improving. But I know it's just a part of a cycle, a rerun, and part of the newness of a move. So valuing uNPDh as a human being made in God's image is really hard. I'm working at it though, despite the hard reality of it all. Thanks for the encouragement T/H.
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5)

tragedy or hope

Mary,
Yikes. I hear you. Some days I am not sure what spiritual "side" my unpdh is on, though his claim is the same as mine.

Because I know of your faith on this forum, I say to you, Jesus died for all, to the very end of His life, and ironically for theirs. It' s part of our walk, our dying to self and our commitment to an all-knowing God who sees everything. I believe it is more about me and my reactions and actions than the unnpdh. I have choices. I can choose to love right behavior and abhor the awful stuff. Still he is person and occasionally does come out with some feelings etc... they are lost and most times, damaged through no fault of their own. I would not want to be in the pit they have been in. I find it difficult enough to address my own woes.
I think mercy needs to abound in these instances knowing my right response is eternal

Also, if this is what I need to keep close to God then so be it. He knows me too and I trust knows what I need. God uncovers some pretty ugly stuff in MY heart in some of the tough times, and the result is love abounding before I finish confessing... so much better than having just what I want.
Blessings!
"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

Mary

Thank you T/H. Here are a couple of Bible verses that I am processing as I work towards compassion and honor for my uNPDh while at the same time setting healthy boundaries and healing for myself.   

Hebrews 12:12-13
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

I (we) can do this!
Mary
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5)