the hell that is Xmas!

Started by p123, December 02, 2021, 04:44:17 AM

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p123

Sorry I know I keep posting things like this but I have a big problem with the little voice at the back of my mind saying "you're a bad son!". I'll try and keep it short.

Dad came to us every Xmas day for years. It meant an hours round trip drive to pick him up and the same to take him home. It wasn't easy but we did it. My wife was great with him.

He started getting worse. Demanding I turn up early and that "the kids don't need you there to open their presents". His manners took a nose dive and he managed to upset everyone every year. But we kept on with it. He didn't seem to care he was taking up more than half of my xmas day. I had "well you don't drink much so you don't mind driving me". Yeh thanks.

One year he was awful. Moaned the whole time. Told me he wasn't going to make it until the doctors surgery opened in a few days. He was going to call an ambulance. This was after he'd eaten dinner and I took him home. Stupidly, I stayed with him for hours all the while my young son was at home waiting for me to come home.....

That was it. Brother lives a mile away, has no kids (he looks after) so no more. Wifes a nurse, so ready made excuse, shes working xmas day. So he went there the year after and I went, on my own, and took Dad out boxing day. Brilliant. 1000x better!

It got worse. Brother turned into the worlds best FM. I was now the bad one. Between them there were lots of other things and they managed to REALLY upset my wife. It got to a head where I sat Dad down and explained that he'd burnt his bridges with my wife now and it was all his fault... Of course, I had the standard "I didnt do anything!". My brother and I no longer speak due to his FM antics - things like creating a work rota for us to visit Dad and including my wife - I refused that one.

So this year Im thinking, surely its going to be the same. Hes not going to expect me to go back to the xmas day thing? Wife would divorce me if he ever set foot in the house again (and to be fair, she put up with him for years, and shes got every reason x10 to feel like this).

Brother has got a habit of inventing situations which he thinks backs me into a corner and forces me to, as he thinks, "do my fair share" with Dad so this is not unexpected. So last night Dad says "so am I coming to you xmas day like normal, you're brother is having Greek food and I dont like it". (Hes not greek btw!).

Its laughable. Brother obviously does not want to have Dad and thats the worse play I've ever seen. Dad, as well, KNOWS the bad feeling hes caused - does he really think my wife is going to welcome him with open arms?

I said "No wife is working, I'll see you Boxing Day". (yeh I know I should just said no).
Now I'm getting all the woe is me, I'll be all alone xmas day.....

Arrrgghhhh. Theres that voice at the back of my head again telling me I'm evil....
Interested in opinions.......


Call Me Cordelia

I would have hung up on him. "I'm coming to you like NORMAL." What presumption AND gaslighting.

moglow

But - "Brother is having Greek food and I dont like it." Um you're a guest in their home, for Christmas! Kind of them to let you know the menu this far in advance, dad, but what's that to do with anything?

P, I'd have to stop these conversations cold going forward. The ruminations have to be driving you buggy and there's no need. It's bad enough what we do to ourselves, but having that pile on that's already been discussed. No. "I'll see you Boxing Day. As usual!" Is plenty then move on to other subjects and/or end the call.
"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

Hilltop

Why are you a bad son when your father could have been nicer to your wife and he would still be welcome in your home.  I would just tell him the new normal is seeing him on Boxing Day.  It works for you.

He doesn't have to be alone, he can go to your brothers for Christmas, he is choosing not to go.  Just like he chose to be rude and put your family off side.

Christmas is a time you need to create loving warm memories for your children.  They come first here.  If your father can't appreciate that and keeps you away from your kids at Christmas because of his antics, that's just selfish on his behalf.

I read so much guilt in your post and yet the only one causing all these issues is your father.  I don't understand why people think they can be mean and they will still be welcome everywhere.  At his age it should be no surprise that if you are rude people don't want to be around you.  Let go of your guilt, you are not a bad son.  You are definitely not evil, lol.

My thoughts are you need to enjoy your Christmas with your family and not get drawn into this.

p123

Quote from: moglow on December 02, 2021, 06:34:09 AM
But - "Brother is having Greek food and I dont like it." Um you're a guest in their home, for Christmas! Kind of them to let you know the menu this far in advance, dad, but what's that to do with anything?

P, I'd have to stop these conversations cold going forward. The ruminations have to be driving you buggy and there's no need. It's bad enough what we do to ourselves, but having that pile on that's already been discussed. No. "I'll see you Boxing Day. As usual!" Is plenty then move on to other subjects and/or end the call.

Well thats brothers pathetic attempt to come up with a reason for Dad not to go his house xmas day. He knows full well that will never in a million years eat anything foreign so he thinks it forces me to step up and invite Dad. I would bet a lot of money that hes lying, doesnt want to have Dad for xmas and wants to go to the pub.

And hes ALWAYS got a massive chip on his shoulder that he does it all and I need to step up...

I have said "nope boxing day"

p123

Quote from: Hilltop on December 02, 2021, 06:56:47 AM
Why are you a bad son when your father could have been nicer to your wife and he would still be welcome in your home.  I would just tell him the new normal is seeing him on Boxing Day.  It works for you.

He doesn't have to be alone, he can go to your brothers for Christmas, he is choosing not to go.  Just like he chose to be rude and put your family off side.

Christmas is a time you need to create loving warm memories for your children.  They come first here.  If your father can't appreciate that and keeps you away from your kids at Christmas because of his antics, that's just selfish on his behalf.

I read so much guilt in your post and yet the only one causing all these issues is your father.  I don't understand why people think they can be mean and they will still be welcome everywhere.  At his age it should be no surprise that if you are rude people don't want to be around you.  Let go of your guilt, you are not a bad son.  You are definitely not evil, lol.

My thoughts are you need to enjoy your Christmas with your family and not get drawn into this.

I know I keep reminding myself  - this is all his doing....

Never in a million years could he come to us for xmas. I've told him the situation and pointed out what hes done. I just dont see how he thinks all is forgiven and he has a right for me to invite him....

mary_poppins

#6
Quote from: p123 on December 02, 2021, 04:44:17 AM

Arrrgghhhh. Theres that voice at the back of my head again telling me I'm evil....
Interested in opinions.......

Yeah, that's not your voice, it's your dad's voice. You've introjected his self-deprecating inner dialogue (I'm bad). I understand that it is common for us, ACONs to do this and we couldn't helped it as kids. We had to introject this terrible voice to survive in the narc's world. It is nicer for a child to think it is his fault for what parent does vs it is the parent's fault. Point is you're not evil, bad or even wrong. It is your programming.

Also, Xmas is terrible if you're in touch with these people. They become more dramatic during this time and demand more attention from you. I myself try to understand why. It is just a holiday. The Queen of England is not coming to your home so there shouldn't be any stress or drama. Xmas can be whatever you want it to be.

What would happen if you didn't accommodate your father this Xmas and just did whatever you and your wife wanted? Worst case scenario?
"There's the whole world at your feet. And who gets to see it but the birds, the stars, and the chimney sweeps." -Mary Poppins

Hilltop

You know something p123 that's the thing with PD's they will keep arguing and arguing and arguing.  They won't stop so its really left with you to stop.  What happens if you simply stop engaging.  You told him xyz and that's it.  Let the rest go.  It doesn't matter what he thinks or feels about it and I don't mean that in a mean way.  Its just that we understand they will use guilt and manipulation to get what they want which means they will say anything to get what they want despite what is best for you.  Perhaps it would be better to stop ruminating about what he is saying and simply bring yourself back to he is invited on xyz and its done.  If you find yourself ruminating about what he is saying or complaining about simply tell yourself to stop.  I know this is not easy to do, I have a lot of problems stopping the thoughts as well.

You are taking on board what your brother is saying however your brother is again saying anything to get the burden off of him and back onto you to make his life easier.  It is not personal to you or about you.  Anything your brother says is simply to make his life easier.

Your father doesn't get to dictate how you live your life now.  You are not bad or mean for giving yourself space to protect yourself.  Simply the fact that you need to protect yourself should be enough to tell you that things aren't normal.




p123

Quote from: mary_poppins on December 02, 2021, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: p123 on December 02, 2021, 04:44:17 AM

Arrrgghhhh. Theres that voice at the back of my head again telling me I'm evil....
Interested in opinions.......

Yeah, that's not your voice, it's your dad's voice. You've introjected his self-deprecating inner dialogue (I'm bad). I understand that it is common for us, ACONs to do this and we couldn't helped it as kids. We had to introject this terrible voice to survive in the narc's world. It is nicer for a child to think it is his fault for what parent does vs it is the parent's fault. Point is you're not evil, bad or even wrong. It is your programming.

Also, Xmas is terrible if you're in touch with these people. They become more dramatic during this time and demand more attention from you. I myself try to understand why. It is just a holiday. The Queen of England is not coming to your home so there shouldn't be any stress or drama. Xmas can be whatever you want it to be.

What would happen if you didn't accommodate your father this Xmas and just did whatever you and your wife wanted? Worst case scenario?

Oh definitely chance to cause more drama!

His last birthday he moaned that my wife didnt phone him personally to wish him happy birthday. Eh? Shes never done that before, I don't phone my MIL, and he seems to forget that hes upset her. It was all about "paying respects" as he calls it. I.e. he treats everyone like crap but expects to be revered.

Didnt last year. Stalemate. I refused. Brother didnt back down. I rang him. He was not happy and I had the old "woe is me". Chickens have come home to roost I thought!

p123

Quote from: Hilltop on December 02, 2021, 07:14:38 PM
You know something p123 that's the thing with PD's they will keep arguing and arguing and arguing.  They won't stop so its really left with you to stop.  What happens if you simply stop engaging.  You told him xyz and that's it.  Let the rest go.  It doesn't matter what he thinks or feels about it and I don't mean that in a mean way.  Its just that we understand they will use guilt and manipulation to get what they want which means they will say anything to get what they want despite what is best for you.  Perhaps it would be better to stop ruminating about what he is saying and simply bring yourself back to he is invited on xyz and its done.  If you find yourself ruminating about what he is saying or complaining about simply tell yourself to stop.  I know this is not easy to do, I have a lot of problems stopping the thoughts as well.

You are taking on board what your brother is saying however your brother is again saying anything to get the burden off of him and back onto you to make his life easier.  It is not personal to you or about you.  Anything your brother says is simply to make his life easier.

Your father doesn't get to dictate how you live your life now.  You are not bad or mean for giving yourself space to protect yourself.  Simply the fact that you need to protect yourself should be enough to tell you that things aren't normal.

Brother has massive chip on his shoulder that he does it all.... Of course, Dad listens to him.

To be honest, it could never happen - having Dad at my house xmas day. Hes burnt his bridges there. My wife would refuse.....

If hes alone xmas day, its his fault. It won't only be me - theres a long string of family and friends who make excuses to avoid Dad because of what hes like.

Jolie40

#10
when our child was younger, three or four years we scheduled vacation time Christmas week

a couple times, we only travelled a couple hours away
the important part was we weren't available to be with FOO on Christmas!

it was great celebrating a stress free Christmas with only husband, child, and I

it was worth spending money at a hotel to get away from them all
I wanted Christmas to be special for us & not all about PD parent's need to always take Christmas Day at their house
be good to yourself

FromTheSwamp

I will spend Christmas Day alone this year again.  You know what?  It's not a magical day.  I don't have family nearby and my friends spend the day with their families.  It's just a day when the stores are closed and I spend the day at home.

Your dad can do the same damn thing. He created this situation, not you.

Hazy111

Quote from: FromTheSwamp on December 03, 2021, 09:57:38 AM
I will spend Christmas Day alone this year again.  You know what?  It's not a magical day.  I don't have family nearby and my friends spend the day with their families.  It's just a day when the stores are closed and I spend the day at home.

Your dad can do the same damn thing. He created this situation, not you.

:yeahthat:

Cat of the Canals

It is entirely normal for grown adults to make their OWN holiday plans with their OWN chosen family. (Though it admittedly took DECADES to figure this out myself.) There is no law that says you MUST spend Xmas (or any holiday) with your FOO. And if your dad was so keen to participate, maybe he shouldn't have spend so many years making himself and everyone else miserable.

If anyone's being selfish it's your dad. Refusing to spend the day with your brother because he doesn't like their food? Pretty rude. Inviting himself to your celebration (without even knowing what the logistics might be?) Incredibly rude.

He doesn't actually care about spending time with you or your family... if he did, he'd be fine with whatever day you offered. He's only interested in getting you to jump through his hoops like a circus animal to prove that he still has power over you.

daughter

Takes two to tango. No Christmas at my house this year for crabby-pants dad.  Repeat, repeat, repeat.

bee well

I think you have received some VERY good advice in the replies to your post. Feeling uncomfortable about the Boxing Day boundary sounds a lot better than going along with Dad's "plans!" You can feel that discomfort (although I hope the false guilt leaves you soon) AND then go on to enjoy the holiday with your wife and whomever else you choose. Much much better! This coming from someone who often plans two holidays, one with DH, and the other with Inlaws, for reasons similar to what you have described.

p123

Quote from: Cat of the Canals on December 04, 2021, 11:34:08 AM
It is entirely normal for grown adults to make their OWN holiday plans with their OWN chosen family. (Though it admittedly took DECADES to figure this out myself.) There is no law that says you MUST spend Xmas (or any holiday) with your FOO. And if your dad was so keen to participate, maybe he shouldn't have spend so many years making himself and everyone else miserable.

If anyone's being selfish it's your dad. Refusing to spend the day with your brother because he doesn't like their food? Pretty rude. Inviting himself to your celebration (without even knowing what the logistics might be?) Incredibly rude.

He doesn't actually care about spending time with you or your family... if he did, he'd be fine with whatever day you offered. He's only interested in getting you to jump through his hoops like a circus animal to prove that he still has power over you.

Most definitely. Dads life seems to revolve around "whats to be expected". If in his head, its expected that someone has their Dad over for xmas then even if he hates it then he wants it to happen.

Like I said for years I did it, 30 mins drive each way so 2 hours+ of xmas day was spend with me driving. Of course no drink for me then until Im back. It did used to annoy me when he said "but you dont drink much so you dont mind, do you?"

He was ALWAYS trying to get me to bend to HIS timetable. "Pick me up at 10am". I'd say Dad I've got to spend time with the kids, open their presents etc so I'll call you when I leave. His answer was always "well tell them they'll have to make do".

I remember one year he was in hospital. Wanted me there 9am xmas day visiting him. I said nope, as above. He was not happy. His answer "tell the kids there'll be other xmases for you to spend time with them but this year you have to visit me". I didn;t give him.

Last year, when I said I can't do xmas day with him and he moaned I said "There'll be other xmases!" That felt good!

Even when Dad did come to us it was awful. He'd make out he couldnt walk - massively putting it on. Then he'd want me to take him to the bathroom and I'd have to literally carry him. He'd sit there and say "cup of tea". No please. His table manners were something else too. Then I'd be scared when he opened his mouth. You'd hear totally innappropriate stories from when he was young.

Oh and he'd moan it was too dark and want all the lights on. And he'd grab the remote and put sport on TV. Glad to see him go on xmas day understatement.

Of course, the one year my brother had him. No love lost between me and brother BUT Dad, said, don't want to do this. dont want to do that., Want to go at this time. etc. Brother wanted to go to the pub fist and do dinner later. Dad did not understand the concept that if someone invites you then its their plans or you stay home. Like always its always got to be what he wants to do.

Cat of the Canals

Quote from: p123 on December 07, 2021, 09:44:38 AM
Last year, when I said I can't do xmas day with him and he moaned I said "There'll be other xmases!" That felt good!

Yes! Maybe it's petty, but I'd start trotting out his favorite phrases to throw right back at him.

Him: But I'll be alone on Christmas Day!
You: You'll have to make do with Boxing Day. Besides, you don't need me there on Christmas Day.

:bigwink:

moglow

Try and not look at this as just a holiday issue - your dad seems to feel he's supposed to be the center of your world. He's not and he resents that. I'm sure you resent the constant inference that you somehow owe him, and him trying to force himself between you and your family. Don't let that take over - you and your family deserve better.

There's a lesson here in your relationships with your own kids, knowing that one day they will grow up, leave home, build their lives as we all do eventually. You're building a life and memories with them, something it sounds like your dad failed to do with you. So continue on as you're going. Put down the stick youre beating yourself with, smile and ask the kids what they want to do next. Stop trying to explain to him since he's not interested anyway. I'd stop even allowing "those" conversations [you know the ones, where he goes on and on about something you've already answered]. I know you don't want to be ugly about it, but damn. It sure gets old, doesn't it!
"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

p123

Quote from: moglow on December 07, 2021, 10:51:03 AM
Try and not look at this as just a holiday issue - your dad seems to feel he's supposed to be the center of your world. He's not and he resents that. I'm sure you resent the constant inference that you somehow owe him, and him trying to force himself between you and your family. Don't let that take over - you and your family deserve better.

There's a lesson here in your relationships with your own kids, knowing that one day they will grow up, leave home, build their lives as we all do eventually. You're building a life and memories with them, something it sounds like your dad failed to do with you. So continue on as you're going. Put down the stick youre beating yourself with, smile and ask the kids what they want to do next. Stop trying to explain to him since he's not interested anyway. I'd stop even allowing "those" conversations [you know the ones, where he goes on and on about something you've already answered]. I know you don't want to be ugly about it, but damn. It sure gets old, doesn't it!

Oh yes. Hes still trying this week - "so am I coming to yours xmas day?" No dad. I've had the conversation 5 times.....