Calling out the behaviour - yes or no ?

Started by Sheppane, January 12, 2022, 06:26:53 AM

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Hilltop

#20
Hey Sheppane, I don't think I agree with your therapist about you needing to have an alternative time to visit.  If you can't make it, you can't make it and healthy people understand that.  I think what you did and said was fine.

I think the assumption part speaks a lot of truths for me as well.  I guess we get used to having things go wrong that we forget that sometimes the PD people in our life won't actually be setting out to do anything, its just that we get triggered so easily sometimes.  Yes when our gut tells us that something is off then 90% of the time, it is, sometimes however there are 10% of the time when we'll be wrong. Let's face it we aren't going to get it right 100% of the time.  I don't say this to make you doubt yourself, I say this because as others have suggested when something like the silent treatment happens, you could start from a place of accepting it on face value.  Maybe they are busy, maybe they didn't think you'd want photo's, maybe they thought someone else would send them, maybe they are busy and will send them later etc.  There could be a genuine reason that you haven't heard from anyone.  So not assuming anything and moving forward with what you want to do in the moment, which may be contact and see how it went or get on with your day and contact them later in the week because you feel triggered and you feel it's more important to work on that first is what I would consider to be not assuming.  It's hard not to mind read but it gives more peace of mind when we don't.  I mean you may reach out and not hear anything in which case you understand it is the silent treatment or you may receive a message back with photo's and a warm message and realise that meh they were just busy.  People do have busy lives and can get distracted, I do think it's important to realise this and understand we may not be a focal point for them at that particular time. 

The other thing that comes to mind when I read your post is overt and covert behaviour.  I think your therapist seems to be saying something much like what Guitarman is saying in that speaking up for yourself can give you more empowerment, I completely agree with this.  However as Lemonlime suggested the type of behaviour you speak up about is really important.  I personally find the silent treatment to be covert behaviour and covert behaviour is really hard to define or speak about because it is so easy to deny. I think your therapist wording on saying 'hey why are you not sending me photo's' is kind of accusatory.  Calling them out for the silent treatment can then lead to them denying it, 'no we're not doing that, we are just busy', 'you are so difficult, why would you say that'.  What can you say back to that, they could have just been busy, you don't really know.  I think of the drama triangle where you start as the victim and them as the perpetrator and now as they simply say they are busy and why are you being so judgemental or difficult or accusing them well now they are the victim and you are the perpetrator in their minds.

The SG role works by the family offloading their negative emotions or hurt or anger onto one person.  When they invited you and you couldn't make it, perhaps your family were angry or hurt by that.  By doing the silent treatment, it's punishment but when you react and say something they can then turn around and gas light and deny, tell you you are being difficult and suddenly you are the problem.  They see that you are upset and hurt. They draw closer together and support each other and talk about you and how it's your problem. They have then shifted those negative emotions off themselves and onto you.  You are left feeling hurt whilst they feel supported by each other, essentially they have shifted their negative emotions to you and bam the SG role has been done.  Now think about how you went from not being in the wrong at all, you simply didn't attend an event and placed a normal boundary in place to suddenly being the person in the wrong.  Now you are upset and hurt. I think this is how the SG role continues to be played out.  This is the reason I don't agree with your therapist and the language she is using or calling out covert behaviour.  I feel it keeps you in those family dynamics.

Now consider that they really were busy and you are now asking them why they haven't sent anything and then it becomes a thing where are you believing them when they say they are busy or are you calling them out.  How does calling them out for the silent treatment reflect on you if they were genuinely busy?

Overt behaviour is different in that you know that raging or insults are not acceptable.  Something obvious has happened and if called out in the moment that can be very empowering.  I mean even if they deny it by saying it was a joke or you are sensitive, inside you know that yelling at people or insulting them is not right, so it's easy to not take in their gaslighting.

If I think about not assuming bad intentions, building up our self esteem and calling out behaviour that are overt whilst using other techniques such as MC with covert behaviours I think this is where we can get out of the family dynamics.  Think about if you simply sent a normal message asking how it went.  Whether they are doing the silent treatment or not you take yourself out of the victim role in the drama triangle because you are coming from a position of strength within yourself.  As for the scapegoat role the family needs you to engage, if you don't then I feel you also take yourself out of that role as well.  How can they transfer those negative emotions to you if you aren't engaged.  As they continue to do the silent treatment you are busy getting on with life, understanding it's them and you contact them when you feel like it.  They cannot transfer those negative emotions and it's left with them.  They can't blame you or tell you you are difficult as what have you done, nothing, you are busy doing your own thing or you have sent a normal caring message checking in with them.  By doing this, there is no fight with them and hence you are not in the SG role.

I suppose I don't think it's just one thing of do I speak up or not.  I feel like there are a lot of undercurrents, history, family dynamics which need to be considered.  I really don't think you need to apologise for not suggesting an alterative time to visit.  This seems to be putting you in a place of acknowledging that you have done something wrong, when you haven't.  Just because they are upset you couldn't make it, that's their emotions which you are not responsible for.  Normal healthy people cannot make events it's not a big deal.  You really have done nothing wrong and I really don't feel like you need to apologise for them being upset.  I honestly think you handled it fine, you said you couldn't make it and said have a nice time.  There is nothing wrong with that, it's how a emotionally healthy person declines an invitation.  I'm sorry for the huge rambling.  I guess I have these family dynamics in my own family and this is how I am coming to see.  Currently my mother is not contacting me and I am leaving it as she is busy and I'm contacting her when I feel like it otherwise I am taking the thought that if she has a problem, she is an adult and can talk to me otherwise I am assuming all is fine.  Otherwise if I were to speak up I fear I would then be back in that SG role.

I am also trying to work on self esteem and building myself back up because I really feel that is the key.  Good luck Sheppane I hope it resolves soon.

guitarman

Of course you being calm provoked an attack. That's because you didn't feed their narcissistic supply that they craved. They provoked you even more so that you would behave in a way that they are so used to. It's what's my uBPD/NPD sister did as well when I changed my behaviour and remained calm. I didn't participate in her game where she set all the rules. She didn't like the change in the power dynamics. I was taking charge and not reacting to being baited.

My sister thinks she knows exactly how to push all my buttons to get a reaction. She can become so cruel and say the most outrageous things shouting and screaming to get any reaction. It's all quite pathetic and sad really.

You need to keep yourself safe. Whatever you are comfortable with is your priority. It's not easy to change years of controlling behaviour and to do things differently. I know. Little by little things can change.

Our safety and well being is our priority. We need to look after ourselves first. It's OK to do that. It really is. That's what I'm learning after decades of abuse.
"Do not let the behaviour of others destroy your inner peace." - Dalai Lama

"You don't have to be a part of it, you can become apart from it." - guitarman

"Be gentle with yourself, you're doing the best you can." - Anon

"If it hurts it isn't love." - Kris Godinez, counsellor and author

Hilltop

I also had the same reaction when I remained calm in response to baiting by my parents.  They would insult and I was grey rocking and using MC techniques.  They kept upping their insults, using really mocking behaviour to get that reaction. 

Being calm does not play into their dynamics.  My experience has been that if I remain calm they bait more, they act out more because they are after that reaction or that response, to see that their hurtful behaviour did in fact hurt.

Sheppane

Really appreciate all the responses I don't have time right now to respond to them all individually.

Im sorry to hear so many others are familiar with this dynamic but the validation helps.

I'm thinking of making up a set of "rules"  to follow in future. No assumptions. Deal with what's infront only. Ask for clarity if needed, dont assume anything if the facts aren't clear.  Take everything at face value, but if a pattern which is so familiar rearises and feels off, it probably is. Calling out if appropriate, but dependant on each and every situation. In the moment, not after. No self guilting or accepting the SG transfer. Be aware of the difference between " playing the game " and protecting myself. Two different things which mainly depend on the motivation behind them. Authenticity is being true to myself first. If It feels OK- do it. If It feels off - don't. Give myself ( and others) a break sometimes. Don't hold myself ( or others) to standards of perfection in communication. If I owe an amend, make it as soon as possible. If I'm not sure, I can wait  Beware of making amends to " fix" and ease the tension.  If it's not genuine, don't do it.

There's more I could add based on all the great advice in this thread..

guitarman

"Do not let the behaviour of others destroy your inner peace." - Dalai Lama

"You don't have to be a part of it, you can become apart from it." - guitarman

"Be gentle with yourself, you're doing the best you can." - Anon

"If it hurts it isn't love." - Kris Godinez, counsellor and author

JenniferSmith

In my mind, if things have broken down so much that you don't have a sense of trust that you can politely decline an invite, then its a sign of much deeper problems than would be remedied by offering them an alternate date, or asking for photos.  Those things are not going to fix these deeper problems.

I mean, we're talking about something as simple as not attending a function.  In a healthy relationship, the response is "We're so sorry to hear that, we'll miss you" or "Oh, we had looked forward to seeing you, hope to catch up soon."    And then you could say "yes, me too, and we'd love to see some photos from the event if you have a chance to send them. best wishes" No harm, no foul.

bunnie

#26
Sheppane, your remarks about the tendency to over apologize, the guilt, and the jumping in to fix things are very familiar to me. The weight of it all is just way too much most of the time. To our detriment, the PDs in our life rarely show us that same consideration. Why is it they never apologize (forget over apologize), experience guilt at their manipulation and lies. They are never interested in fixing things when we're hurt.  I totally understand where you're coming from.  Sometimes we just have to say "so what?" to the little voices of guilt and blame. We've heard it all before, and no matter how hard we try, things never get better. I believe that, too, is being authentic.
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize - Voltaire

"Sometimes letting things go is an act of far greater power than defending or hanging on. - Eckhart Tolle

Sheppane

thanks guitarman for the jolly band cheering me on  :) :) :)

Jennifersmith thanks for the validation . you are right it is the sign  of deeper problems , none of which I can "fix". It's so true I think that comparison with what would a normal healthy response look like ....it's the one thing I find that is sometimes so easy to see in reference to someone else but not me...and so helpful to see how far apart those different responses might be.

I tried doing that this wk. What would a healthy response have looked like ? It does a lot to ease my feelings of guilt . Right now I am struggling with my Ts comments and trying to figure out if I need to apologise...if pride is getting in my way ( because I don't feel I do need to) ie is my T right and I'm wrong

And I'm beginning to think I'm just afraid of being judged by my T if I don't,  and also the fear of having done " the wrong thing " and being less than,  not enough,  and all those ensuing thought patterns...

LemonLime

Sheppane, this might be an opportunity.  An opportunity to "out yourself" with your T.   Let her know that you're struggling with the apology issue.  That you don't feel you owe your FOO an apology, but that you're afraid of being judged by T.

I always "out" myself as a people-pleaser to my T's.  I tell them that my tendency is to try to please them, and to make them like me.  And that I try very hard to show people that I'm smart.   And then I give the T "orders" to catch me on that and call me on it.    I give them total permission and encouragement to catch me doing that.  To challenge me.... "Lemon Lime, are taking my advice  because you think it's right, or because you want me to like you?"   would be an example of calling me out.
I require quite a strong T.   I need one who is not squeamish.  I need one who is not a people-pleaser themselves.   I am not paying them big bucks so we can be best friends.  And I am a strong woman who wants challenging therapy.
You can guess that I do have a very hard time finding a T.   
That's just me.   I do find that T's often need some direction.   Kind of like telling a massage therapist that you want deep tissue massage, not superficial!
Hope that helps a little.

IsleOfSong

Sheppane, this might be a good time for you to familiarize yourself with Bill Eddy and his BIFF communication technique. BIFF stands for "brief, informative, friendly, and firm." You could even use BIFF on your family AND your T, if it comes to that. :)

YouTube is a good place to get familiar with Eddy's terrific work.

Hilltop

Hey Sheppane what exactly does your therapist want you to apologise for.

It was an event.  You don't have a say in when that happens. If it was coffee,  yeah you could have said I can't do Monday how about Wednesday.  However I don't think you can ask someone to change details of a party or event.  You can either make it or you can't.
Would you ask a friend to change the time of their birthday party to suit you? I can't say I would.

Is your therapist asking you to apologise for upsetting them. Their feelings aren't your responsibility. Have they said to you that they are upset?

I find some of the stuff in the toolbox really helpful for reminding myself about the pitfalls I can fall into,  especially when the guilt sets in. 

Sheppane

Quote from: bunnie on January 15, 2022, 06:42:14 PMSometimes we just have to say "so what?" to the little voices of guilt and blame. We've heard it all before, and no matter how hard we try, things never get better. I believe that, too, is being authentic.

I think thats it. I feel " guilted" by my T and also confused with the mixed messages from them. Alot of the work I had been doing was around feeling appropriate anger( which I suppress) , and learning to clearly communicate and step away if needed. I thought I had done that well. But they're suggestion to apologise for not sounding like I cared that I would miss the event just feels off. I now feel blamed,  judged and very confused.

Sheppane

Quote from: Hilltop on January 16, 2022, 07:41:37 PM


Is your therapist asking you to apologise for upsetting them. Their feelings aren't your responsibility. Have they said to you that they are upset?

Exactly. That's what they have said that the manner I communicated that we could not attend may have upset them. I take the point about others feelings not being my responsibility but if it is true that I was careless / insensitive and they felt hurt as a result is that not my responsibility? I mean I have apologised to folks in the past if it's clear that they way I said something upset them- or even if it was a simple misunderstanding I would clarify and apologise if necessary explaining that wasn't my intention. So I think sometimes I am responsible if I hurt someone's feelings, even if unintentional?

I suppose the difference is whether the  act or omission has caused harm. In a straightforward situation where its clear I've caused harm I am quite happy to clear up my side of the street and apologise. I don't apologise where I'm being manipulated into not having done " enough" for example , because that bar always jumps higher. Here , I don't even have clarity as to whether anyone is hurt or harmed by me - particularly as they have not communicated it. I think if someone had told me they were upset,  explaining why, it would give me the opportunity to reflect upon it and see whether I was at fault. That would give me clarity. So yes my therapist is asking me to apologise when we don't know anyone is upset..other than the fact that no one has contacted me since.

What's particularly difficult is my therapist pointed out that we all have blind spots, and maybe I just can't see it. So there is that part of me thinking maybe she is right and pride is getting in my way. But as someone who over apologises that would definitely be unusual for me - I am normally super fast to apologise if I've done something wrong,  in part because I find it very hard to tolerate feelings of guilt and conflict. But this just isn't sitting right which makes me wonder that maybe I need to trust myself more and consider that a) they might be wrong b) who knows,  really

Apologising for at best a very subtle miscommunication,  the only fault having been it was not very effusive , when no one has said it upset them....feels off. The possibly bigger issue here is that it is showing me how much power I hand to my T.

Sheppane

thank you isleofsong for the recommendation of BIFF I will take a look  :)

LemonLime

Sheppane, I can't help but jump in here again.   My strong opinion:
You are right.  Your T is wrong on this one.

I can relate so much to your story.  I'm an over-apologizer.  My uPD sib takes advantage of that.  "LemonLime, you didn't do as many dishes as I did last night, and I am so HURT and feel so DISRESPECTED and you are ENTITLED and treat me like your personal servant and always have!!"   she shrieked, red-faced with bloodshot eyes, sweating like a pig, in a complete rage.    The dishes were her only complaint.

I did not apologize.  Normally I probably would have, to keep peace and because it is a reflex for me.  But I had been meditating and doing other work on myself, so I was able to suppress the reflex.   I am so glad I didn't apologize for her perception that I didn't do as many dishes.   Do I have videotape and an Excel spreadsheet proving how many dishes I did during the vacation versus how many she did?  Nope.   But normal people do not have a total meltdown over an unprovable perception, and they give the people they know and trust the benefit of the doubt, and at least check in with them with a sense of curiosity before completely losing their "stuff" over something like dishwashing.

Your T is wrong.  And I do wonder if she really "gets" what a PD is.   I find it very concerning that she is suggesting you apologize in this instance.  As others have said, apologize for what?   You are trying to learn and practice boundaries, and it seems to me you have a better understanding of boundaries than she does.  The last thing you need now is someone who doesn't have a clear understanding of healthy boundaries to be guilting you.  She should be congratulating you, not questioning your choice.  To me you handled the situation perfectly.  Perfectly!

I too am working on these exact sticky boundary issues.  My sib wants to be able to twist ANY situation into one where she has been "hurt".  Well, she truly is able to twist any situation into one where she is aggrieved, but that does not mean that I did anything wrong.   It seems to always boil down to "was I rude or not?".  Well, rude is subjective most of the time.  What offends one person doesn't offend another person.   PD's are experts in getting offended.  I believe it's one of their tools for manipulating others, especially empaths like us.   It's sort of a magic card to pull.....claim to feel hurt and disrespected, and others will fawn and apologize and give the PD all the attention and the PD can play Victim, which is their favorite role in life.

Forgive my bluntness, and take it or leave it, but if this were me I would fire this T.   She would be doing exactly the opposite of what I am paying her to do.   For me, she would be dangerous because she would have me confused and not moving toward my goals of better boundaries.   It feels to me that her boundaries for herself are not clear and healthy.  I am now very sensitive to T's that don't seem to "get it", even if they claim they do.   In fact I went to a T specifically because she "works extensively with BPDs and runs DBT groups".   I fired her after the first session when she suggested that I take my uPDsib up on her offer to "let's go get coffee alone sometime LemonLime and let's talk about how mom and dad treated you so much better than they treated me when we were kids".    This after she raged at me about the dishes, insulted my parenting and then refused to apologize.  It was obvious that during this "talk" sib was going to try to distract me, to deflect blame from herself and to avoid taking responsibility for what she had done.  She was going to try gaslighting, projection, blaming, victimization of herself.  That was so obvious to me.  And she specifically wanted to do it privately, not in a public place.  Hmmmm....
But the T said something like "I think you should give your sib a chance to talk with you, and I don't see why you are afraid of that".    OMG.   Sib was trying to get me ALONE so there would be no witnesses when she gaslighted me and perhaps raged again at me.   Not being alone with a PD is "PD 101".   We all know that, but this T didn't.

FWIW.  I've found it very difficult to find a T that understands and doesn't do more harm than good.  So far the best I've found is T's that do no harm but don't help much.
Obviously you know whether this T is helping or not.   Just want to let you know my impression of what she has been saying to you about this subject, which is such an important subject.
Please don't doubt yourself Sheppane.  Listening to your instincts and gut is exactly what you are trying to learn to do.  Exactly.
Bravo on your response to your FOO.  Bravo!



IsleOfSong

I agree with LemonLime completely!

Here's another 2 cents from me: If you're concerned about finding a therapist who "gets" PDs and how to handle them, you may want to look into working with a coach who works with victims of narcissistic abuse. I have been working with a coach for about 8 months who specializes in handling bullies, believe it or not, and it's done wonders for me. I still have a long way to go, as I too am an inveterate people pleaser due to my own deep FOO issues, but I'm making measurable progress and am glad I'm on this path. Eggshells be damned!

Hilltop

Sheppane I don't agree with your therapist. 

I don't believe you have anything to apologise for.  You said you couldn't make the event and have a nice time.  Nothing wrong with this at all.  Absolutely nothing wrong. 

The part about the blind spot is worrying to me. You feel right about how you handled yourself but your therapist is confusing you.

Your gut is correct.  If you usually apologise and this time you don't know what for then trust yourself.  So far I think you should be giving yourself a high five,  you've done great. 

There is nothing in the language you have written here that warrants an apology.

bunnie

IsleofSong, Thanks for sharing Bill Eddy's info. Very helpful  :thumbup:
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize - Voltaire

"Sometimes letting things go is an act of far greater power than defending or hanging on. - Eckhart Tolle

Sheppane

thanks for all the replies. I have had time to think and it's been good to be able to see what's my part and what's not. And leave the confusion be confusion ...until/ if I change my mind.

I was very triggered by my T and I think learning to trust my own response helps. As an overapologiser I generally know when I have done something wrong. But hey I'm not perfect either !

Just to shake it up sister no.2 called to say how sister no 1 is having such a hard time. I listened. She is aware that I do not hear from her so do not know the details of her ups and downs at the moment. We are VLC..only just because I stopped fawning. So she then adds that at least sisterno1 has her ( no.2) and great friends, too. People who acknowledge her pain, she said. I agreed, it is good she has that support. Resisted the bait/ invitation to caretake.  :stars:
thanks everyone for your helpful comments