Disassociating from the abuse

[Justme729]

I'd love to hear some advice and experience on this topic.

My therapist brought up how I can talk about the abuse, but I can't openly admit "I was abused".  It's like a mental block, where I always think "I could have had it worse."  It feels like a split, then and now.  Unchoosen, choosen.  Someone asked me once if I was abused, I said "no, but I witnessed abuse."  Who was I kidding, what she did was abuse.  I know deep down it was abuse.   Physical and emotional.  Why can't I openly admit it aloud that "yes, what she did was abuse.".   I have also been doing emdr to process the trauma and realize some stuff I have blocked out of my memory and it just isn't there.    For example, I know there was a time were I know I got some sort of punishment.   I just can't recall what - and does it matter?   I know a punishment happened. 

It's like the big elephant in the room.  I really don't want others to know my history.  My friend group has similar experiences and we all kind of just have a mindset of "it happened, we are doing good for ourselves, we aren't following the same cycle, and our past is just really messed up."  Am I worried that by saying it's abuse it will upset the status quo?   My extended family will once again blacklist me.  I feel like I've gone back in time and process the trauma fresh through a different lense. Of course "she" would never admit to anything. 

[11JB68]

That idea that you could have had it worse, reminds me of the concept of comparative suffering....in which we see our own problems mostly in comparison to those of others and somehow downplay the significance of what we are going through.  When really it is fine to allow ourselves to experience our own suffering....

[pianissimo]

In my case, I know I'm dissociating when there is a feeling that's facing me. For example, for a long time now, I have been aware of this big sadness in me, and, sometimes, I do feel sad when something triggers that sadness, but, recently, I realized, the reason I experience that sadness this way, as if it's not my own, something that engulfs me, is because I'm dissociated from that sadness. I'm here, and sadness is there.

I think, when we dissociate from the abuse, we don't fully feel how it makes us feel. If we are still in the abusive environment, dissociation protects us, and gives us the opportunity to function in life. This is how dissociation worked for me when I was a teenager. As a teenager, I couldn't get away from the abuse, so I had to dissociate. But, a couple of years ago, I noticed that I tend to dissociate in response to stress and I start thinking irrationally (like a teenager). So, this is the damage.

I don't know if this is similar to your situation. Last year, I had an argument with my father, but, later (like a year later), I realized my body gave a PTSD response. I had a lot of anxiety. But, I still can't call what happened abuse. My father yelled at me. I think this is abuse, given how I reacted. He intimated me. Saying this is difficult for me, it's like I'm the weak one, or I'm the one who can't take it. I also don't want to admit he has such power over me. Realizing this annoys me a lot. I don't like the idea of him having have such control over my emotions, this thought makes me very very angry, it pushes me to violent thoughts because it makes me feel trapped and I want to break free. I acknowledged his reaction on the phone as abuse only after realizing my PTSD response. It was a bit like admitting scientific fact "Look at your reaction, it was abuse, you behaved like an abused person".  It wasn't like "Oh, it scared me so much, I remembered all the times he raged when I was a child, I remembered how helpless I felt", no, my response at the time was, "So, father yelled at me. Yes, it scared me. But we will be OK (I was aware of the scared inner child in my head)."  At the time, I was focused on the subject of the argument, and later, I attributed the spike in my anxiety to myself. My anxiety reduced only after realizing its source.

In this example, in the end, I don't know if I connected with how the abuse made me feel. I don't know how it's supposed to feel. It's so weird to know you are scared, anxious, to feel like a helpless little child, but not know this is because you are abused. I found peace when I realized I was abused and the fear and anxiety was my response to that. So, I might have connected to some of the feelings the abuse makes me feel. And, when I think of my conversation with my father like this, I can say I was abused by him. I became scared and fearful after the phone conversation with him, and I experienced severe anxiety following that phone call, possibly because that's how he abused me as a child. As a child too, he would yell at me like that, and at that age, I would think the end of world is coming, that I might die, I prepared myself for the worst. So, here is the abuse, and here is how it makes me feel.

[Empie2204]

From my experience,  dissociation is inevitable.
It helps us to go through the process. Admitting that we are abused does not happen abruptly. It would be even more painful if it were so.
It' s a sort of adjustment to the thought that we are abused.
From there, one should move on because it  is unnatural and harmful to remain on the same level too long.
I wish you all the best and healing! 

[bee well]

For many of us its extremely difficult to say "I was abused" because it opens us a lot pain which me might not be ready to experience.

As noted by pianissimo, disasocciating is a protective mechanism, a way to avoid the painful feelings.

Admiting that we have been abused by our parents deconstructs an idealized view of them, another protective mechanism that we may be subconsciously holding on to.

For me it was shameful to admit what my parents, and other abusers, did to me. I internalized their shameful behaviour. I felt like it was my fault, even when I knew it wasn't. I know this shame is not mine but at times it still makes it uncomfortable to open up about it.

Pianissimo wrote  "I found peace when I realized I was abused and the fear and anxiety was my response to that." this was true for me too.

Like many of you, for so long, I had no idea what my suffering was about. It's liberating to know that it is not an inherent defect. There is still a lifetime of work to do, but its so much easier knowing that what we are working to overcome is something that is largely a result of experience.

11JB68 wrote " That idea that you could have had it worse, reminds me of the concept of comparative suffering....in which we see our own problems mostly in comparison to those of others and somehow downplay the significance of what we are going through.  When really it is fine to allow ourselves to experience our own suffering...."

Comparative suffering  prevents us from deminimizing our abuse. I think many of us have a hard time allowng ourselves to experience our own suffering because we have more empathy for others than we have for ourselves AND suffering is seen as a weakness in a society where there is a focus on (just getting over it and) staying happy 24/7...

On another note, your post reminds me indirectly of titration ( a concept in Somatic Experiencing) which has do with releasing trauma in slow doses to prevent becoming overwhelmed. I was thankful to learn about this concept because often there is so much focus on "letting it all out" and getting healed that we forget it's ok to go at our own pace. Thinking about tritation is also helpful because at times the inner critic shames me  because I have to stop, slow down, and focus less on "doing the work." (There's that old shame again, ugh.)

[Liketheducks]

I experienced this as well.   For the longest time, I said didn't say that I was abused.   No one in the family discussed it.      I came to it through my therapist.    The language my family used was "others have it worse".    For heavens safe, we lived in campgrounds my last three years of high school.   Sometimes in a tent, and then later in a camping trailer.   It took nearly 30 years before I could say that we were homeless.   My parents STILL don't call it that.   They call it an "adventure".     For me, it feels like I internalized their gaslighting of me.

When I think of disassociating, I'm reminded of how I would/do turn off or get hyper competent during a stressful event.   I lose myself in those moments.   I'm really good in an emergency.    Then, when the threat is past, I suddenly lose it, usually through tears.     

[OddFamily]

As others have said, sometimes there's a disconnect between giving what happened a name and what actually happened. When I was going through a yucky situation with my landlady, my coworkers called it abuse before I did. There's no suffering metric, that when it passes this threshold it's abusive and that if it doesn't then it's not. But sometimes giving it its proper name can make it seem worse. But if you don't give it its proper name and drag it out into the light, then it will just stay and fester and do no one any good.

[treesgrowslowly]

I recently saw a list online, signs of trauma, and one of the signs was that you can talk about abuse you saw / felt without getting emotional. Your post reminded me of that.

I agree with what was already posted- we do this for self-protection. We know it won't ever be safe to express the real emotions to our abuser, or any of their enablers.

Some people manage to stay in contact with their relatives while they are going through therapy for PTSD but I could not. I found it extremely distressing to go back into the same abusive behaviours that were sending me to therapy in the first place. In my case, I blocked my own healing for several extra years, because I thought that I could "make" some of my relatives safe to be around, when in reality, they had no interest in doing that for me.

We do a lot to stay in an emotional state that keeps our current relationships going. Looking back, I spent years going into freeze mode, just to keep certain people in my life. I protected myself from feeling things that these people did not want me to feel. But then in therapy those are the exact feelings you are encouraged to feel. So if I understand your question, the dilemma is that if you start to explore these things with your therapist, you are likely going to see a change in how your extended family treats you.

Like I said, some people here have experience with managing to be in therapy and staying in touch with relatives but I couldn't figure out how.

Most therapy encourages us to assert boundaries and then for a lot of us, our relatives are just so toxic that they will , like you said, blacklist us as soon as we start asserting our rights. The book "Recovering from Emotionally immature parents" has some good advice on how to spend time with relatives while you are working on healing. I think there is a whole chapter on that topic.

Maybe ask your therapist to help you to have a plan for what to do with the people in your life as you keep working on yourself in therapy. A good therapist will help you plan out how to address the reactions that you can likely predict in a lot of cases. We know our relatives well by the time we get to therapy. It is important for therapists to help us with the way therapy changes our relationships. I had a therapist long ago who was convinced that people just need to "deal with it". That particular therapist had idea how to help me plan for what happens when you assert yourself with people who are toxic. I changed therapists after that because she was acting like these things were no big deal. She was not a trauma informed therapist. I think those of us who have had PD abuse need trauma informed therapists.

This is a good place to share about what you are told in therapy and we can be a good sounding board to debrief about ideas that came up in therapy.

Trees

[Spring Butterfly]

I speak publicly often and never use the word abuse, cPTSD or trauma. No need. I write entire blog posts and share healing tools on social media. Not a word about abuse past, present or future. Only recently did I write an article and buried it in my blog posts at the request of friends in a private group who know I know what it's all about.

I do not believe you need to share or talk if you choose not too. There's also a difference between abuse of the past and continuing abuse. If it's in the past and you prefer to acknowledge that with your therapist you don't need to "go public" if you choose to keep your healing journey to yourself.

I have chosen to go public with my personal healing journey without calling out what I'm healing from exactly.

[Justme729]

I've been pondering responses, a lot of things to digest.   

It feels like a protective mechanism.  The disassociation.   Also, the concept of comparative suffering came up recently.   Apparently, my great great parents where quite physical with my grandpa.   My grandpa and his parents were also physical to my mom and her siblings.   So in my mother's mind her "spanking" was nothing compared to her dad and grandparents.   BUT, it doesn't take away the fact that she did repeat the cycle on my siblings and I.  Maybe it wasn't as extreme (my grandparents never laid a hand on me).  But, we knew to cry so she'd stop.   I feel bad for her because she was a little kid and wasn't protected.  I see the little kid in her.  Is it possible doesn't recall her behavior towards us kids, because of her own experiences?   It makes me wonder.  When she got so mad like that she completely snapped and it seemed like she wasn't there.   Then her boyfriend, she was used to being beaten?   So it didn't phase her?   My dad didn't do that, but she was used to that harsh punishment and expected him to fight back?   She's mentioned something along those lines before.  I always assumed it was because my dad is just a people pleaser and just wanted her to be happy.   But we all know we can be our own worst enemy and go back to maladaptive behavior when triggered.   Idk.

I really want to have empathy for her.   But at the same time, I just want the acknowledgment that when we went through was trauma and not something to just "get over" and "move on with life."

[MIB]

Through therapy, I came (and still am coming) to terms with having been emotionally and physically abused, mostly by my mother, but also by dad (emotionally) later in my adult years. I have a lot of blank spots in my earlier memories, and as others have mentioned, appreciate that this is my brain's way of protecting me.

I don't know if it's good (healthy) or not, but I think of it as "that was me then", and "this is me now". I couldn't help the situation I was in when I was a child, and I tried incredibly hard to maintain family relations while protecting myself as I grew older, and yay me for having come through all that as well (though certainly not perfectly) as I have. Overall, I think little girl MIB would be proud of how grown up MIB has turned out.

I prefer to think of myself as having risen above my circumstances, versus feeling victimized by them. Quite frankly, I just don't like to think of myself as a victim (though I know that, by definition, it's true). I find this helps me use my past as a fuel of sorts to do and be the best person I can be, versus letting it bring me down.

Again, I don't know if this is the best approach, but it's the one I've been taking. Hope this perspective in some way is helpful. Hugs.

[easterncappy]

Out of curiosity, did your parents put ideas in your head about how their childhoods weren't abusive, so that means yours wasn't? Did they react aggressively if you brought up that you thought something was wrong when you were growing up? I remember trying to reason with my mother. Maybe she just didn't know any better and wasn't aware of some of the things she was doing, and she especially couldn't have been aware of the things my father was doing to me, right? No, I was just met with passive aggressive victim blaming behavior. I think she empathized with me for about 20 minutes before the weird excuses and coping mechanisms came out. Years later I consider this the breaking point, the day I realized she couldn't be a part of my life in the long term. She probably doesn't even remember that day.

You did describe pretty typical generational abuse... your parents probably were better than your grandparents. And your grandparents probably were better than your great-grandparents. Marginally so - because abuse was viewed as a quirk that your parents had, most people omitted the absolute worst parts of their childhood abuse in raising their children... but of course, that wasn't enough to actually make them non-abusive. They just grew up in a different culture than we did which is why they never really questioned anything that was done to them. Back in the day, breaking away from your FOO was virtually unheard of because it was pretty much impossible (multiple generations lived in one house, people couldn't really afford to go live away from their family, it was not socially acceptable to question your parents even as an adult, etc.). No one really cared about child abuse... less than 100 years ago we were sending 5 year olds to work in factories where they'd get radium poisoning or die stuck in equipment. Children did not have rights... and now they do. Society has advanced to the point where the average person is able to take care of themselves and think about things besides their own immediate material survival (which is where a lot of generational abuse comes from and what allows it to flourish for so long - who cares about feelings when you're starving?). There were plenty of happy and healthy families back then, but only if you were born into one. If you weren't, oh well. Now you can break away and make your own happy and healthy family.

So with all of these societal advancements, you get a lot of adult children of abusers finally questioning what happened to them. Maybe it isn't just a quirk, maybe it isn't just something "they didn't know was wrong", maybe they really did mean to hurt us which makes them dangerous to us and our spouses and children. As society started to do away with concepts like multigenerational households, the idea that children are a retirement plan for their parents, etc. then people started to think "hey, my parents actually made me really miserable growing up... now that I'm out and on my own, I realize that other people treat me a lot better... I actually think I don't have to stay in touch with these people at all!". Psychology has caught up to the modern age, too. We have actual words now to describe those icky feelings of having to be around people who do nothing but hurt you. We have actual evidence that proves that being treated certain ways as a child has certain life-long effects - whether or not we want to accept this is on us, it's true either way. Abusive elderly people can go to nursing homes and we don't have to feel guilty about leaving them to fend for themselves. So on and so forth. You're not stuck with whatever family you were born into until you die anymore.

I'd like to think that if my mother grew up in the culture I grew up in, maybe she'd be more willing to question these things. She wants to be the retirement plan for her parents who abused her in ways that I cannot even wrap my mind around - but she'd never call it abuse, because she's just too good for that, it's my generation "that made being abused into a trend"*, "your family should be your God", she "refuses to be a victim" (as if pretending she wasn't abused is going to magically take away her severe psychological issues), blah blah blah. They're all coping mechanisms because she's too much of a coward to confront reality despite living in an age where there are ample resources to help her forge a more dignified life for herself. I know it sounds harsh, but that's just what abusive parents do. It's more comfortable for them to live in an abusive dynamic than it is for them to stand up for what's right.

Growing as a person who was abused by their parents requires looking out for fleas and not picking them up. This is a flea. It may not seem like one, but it's the most basic of the behaviors that allow these things to go on for generations and generations. And of course it hurts accepting that you were born to people who are not good for you. But it's a reality you are going to have to confront if you want to heal from it. You know how they say that the first step is admitting there is a problem to begin with.

*This one was specifically said about a form of sexual abuse by my father that she minimized and blamed me for. Years later, a politician's relative was caught doing the same thing to a child, and everyone from all sides of the political spectrum was absolutely horrified by it. It was very validating hearing that feeling violated by that behavior wasn't me falling for a "trend" or "being too sensitive" and that it absolutely wasn't my fault (I was 3 years old when it began). What he did was considered a very major point of why he was a bad, terrible person, an abuser, a criminal, a pedophile... and my own mother shrugged it off when it happened to me. Do you see how these people think? They might convince you that you aren't being abused, but they're the ones that are so far removed from reality that it's actually scary.

[Justme729]

Easterncappy- you've really kind of hit the nail on the head about stuff.

When I did advocate for myself, my siblings, and so on (ie: how the boyfriend treated my mom) I was brushed aside as an angry hormonal teenager who was upset about her parents divorce.  These day she just straight up denies doing 100% of the things she does.   Grandma (her mom) and my dad just say don't bring it up because it's upsetting for her and causes a scene.   Well, she needs to hear it.  She doesn't need coddling.   Grrr!

I find what you said about living near grandparents interesting.   My mom lived next door to her grandparents.   The other set lived across town.   Now, my aunt, my grandma, and my mom all live on the same property and are very enmeshed and codependent. 

It's hard because sometimes I really feel nothing.   I know I did at one point.   It shaped me.   It's hard.  Little things.   My daughter told me it's OK if I can't make it to all of her games or practices.   My gut is that I am failing her and start to have an anxiety attack.   My the reality is that my reaction is rooted in my trauma.  My mom had to cook dinner for her boyfriend.  She got too many DUIs and couldn't drive.  My brothers couldn't act right (literally - the one would chase the other with a knife). I got the short end of the stick.  I knew that's how it was, it wasn't going to change.  So I just shrugged it off and said I'd do better for my kids (and I have).   It's still causing a lot of trauma reaction for me.  My dad missing my graduation.   My dad choosing my brother(s) over me.  My mom saying her (abusive) boyfriend is more of a dad than my own dad.   It's all trauma.   But I can't feel emotion.   I've felt my emotion.  I just want to move on.  I told my dad he missed all my milestone stuff growing up in high school and college due to my brothers and he won't miss it for my daughter and he will block out these dates for her.  I don't think he took it serious.   My brother is set to finish his phd at the same time.   I already told my brother that dad is obligated to come to his granddaughter's graduation.    (I should say my brother is a lifetime student and my dad has been to all of his MANY graduations - 2 associates, 2 bachelors, 2 masters, and probably more....).   Why?   Why do I have to do all this?  My daughter is already protecting her heart that her grandpa won't come.  She has been since middle school.   Her thought process is, "he didn't go to yours, why would he come to mine?"

[NarcKiddo]

In my case, I did not realise for decades that my uNPD mother's behaviour amounted to abuse. She was just weird/cruel/emotional/volatile/fragile etc etc.

She would certainly deny her behaviour amounted to abuse, although recently she did bring up an episode of physical abuse from my childhood and said "I suppose you couldn't do that these days; they would complain about it."

I am coming to terms with the fact it was abuse. BUT I would have a very hard time admitting to anyone bar a therapist that it was abuse. Because it would likely provoke a barrage of comments along the lines of "well, it couldn't have been THAT bad if you are still in touch with her" or "she meant well - she's your mother after all" or "you must go NC immediately".

[easterncappy]

Easterncappy- you've really kind of hit the nail on the head about stuff.

When I did advocate for myself, my siblings, and so on (ie: how the boyfriend treated my mom) I was brushed aside as an angry hormonal teenager who was upset about her parents divorce.  These day she just straight up denies doing 100% of the things she does.   Grandma (her mom) and my dad just say don't bring it up because it's upsetting for her and causes a scene.   Well, she needs to hear it.  She doesn't need coddling.   Grrr!

I was a married mother and homeowner and had been an adult for almost a decade when my dad was still telling me "calm your puberty" (yes, I know it sounds ridiculous) if I ever said "no" to him or made him feel like he wasn't the most special, intelligent boy in the world. I'm very familiar with this. Although, I'd be cautious with trying to get PD parents to confront reality. They're probably never going to - I'd wager that less than 1% ever admit they have a problem and get the proper psychological help for it (by the way, you aren't the proper psychological help and this isn't your job). I'm not saying to coddle her, but just don't waste your time trying to accomplish the impossible.

Also, I go back and forth on my mom's gaslighting... I can't speak for your mom, especially since I don't even understand my own mom, but some days I think it's an intentional act of malice, and other days I think her PD makes her so detached from reality that she actually believes the nonsense she churns out. I wonder which one is true for either of our moms.

I find what you said about living near grandparents interesting.   My mom lived next door to her grandparents.   The other set lived across town.   Now, my aunt, my grandma, and my mom all live on the same property and are very enmeshed and codependent.

Back in the olden days it made a lot more sense for us to be "close" (enmeshed) with our families. We weren't exactly paragons of mental health and emotional stability back then, but it beat getting eaten by lions or dying alone in the cold. Fortunately, society has progressed to the point where we can take care of ourselves without having mom, grandma, and auntie over our shoulder at all times. Take advantage of this.

It's hard because sometimes I really feel nothing.   I know I did at one point.   It shaped me.   It's hard.  Little things.   My daughter told me it's OK if I can't make it to all of her games or practices.   My gut is that I am failing her and start to have an anxiety attack.   My the reality is that my reaction is rooted in my trauma.  My mom had to cook dinner for her boyfriend.  She got too many DUIs and couldn't drive.  My brothers couldn't act right (literally - the one would chase the other with a knife). I got the short end of the stick.  I knew that's how it was, it wasn't going to change.  So I just shrugged it off and said I'd do better for my kids (and I have).   It's still causing a lot of trauma reaction for me.  My dad missing my graduation.   My dad choosing my brother(s) over me.  My mom saying her (abusive) boyfriend is more of a dad than my own dad.   It's all trauma.   But I can't feel emotion.   I've felt my emotion.  I just want to move on.  I told my dad he missed all my milestone stuff growing up in high school and college due to my brothers and he won't miss it for my daughter and he will block out these dates for her.  I don't think he took it serious.   My brother is set to finish his phd at the same time.   I already told my brother that dad is obligated to come to his granddaughter's graduation.    (I should say my brother is a lifetime student and my dad has been to all of his MANY graduations - 2 associates, 2 bachelors, 2 masters, and probably more....).   Why?   Why do I have to do all this?  My daughter is already protecting her heart that her grandpa won't come.  She has been since middle school.   Her thought process is, "he didn't go to yours, why would he come to mine?"

You feel like this because apparently, you were never parented as a kid. No one emotionally supported you or built you up to be an adult who can handle these things. Plus you recognize that what happened to you was terrible and you're scared of accidentally doing it to your own kids. The thing is, none of what happened to you was an accident. It was all intentional, sometimes your suffering was the intention but sometimes it was the by-product of what was intended (mom wanted to party hard, even if it meant getting a DUI and being unable to take care of her children - to her, this was a fair price). But you're different, and you actually care if you're failing your kids or not. So do yourself (and your kids) a favor and fix the fact that you weren't parented correctly. Therapy, self-help books, journaling, etc., any of that good stuff is a start. Usually what's happened to us is so severe that we can't fix it ourselves, so at some point you will probably need a professional. Take care of yourself. Seriously. You don't want to be stuck thinking this way for the rest of your life. It's holding you back.

[moglow]

So do yourself (and your kids) a favor and fix the fact that you weren't parented correctly. Therapy, self-help books, journaling, etc., any of that good stuff is a start. Usually what's happened to us is so severe that we can't fix it ourselves, so at some point you will probably need a professional. Take care of yourself. Seriously. You don't want to be stuck thinking this way for the rest of your life. It's holding you back.

I like this. We can't help that they were deficient or uncaring as parents or that's what we grew up in. We CAN change what we do going forward and making life better for ourselves and those around us. I think that starts with nurturing ourselves, finding out what feeds us instead of starves so we have more give and take rather than overload of one or the other. Work on and find forgiveness that they are who they are [and it's not personal unless we make it so] so you can put the ugliness down. I'm not saying whitewash the abuse, but you can refuse to take on more or replay the old. You don't have to carry that forever, none of us do. We can't sustainably ignore it but we can with time accept that it happened and it was awful, AND we can rise above. WAY above.

Grandma (her mom) and my dad just say don't bring it up because it's upsetting for her and causes a scene.

Well la de freakin da - it's upsetting for HER. I deeply dislike comparative abuse, to me that's saying "oh it's abuse but mine/yours is less than so it's doable." No. That doesn't make it any less so for you or others. And still she's the PARENT. She OWED you better even if that's not what she knew herself.

You may be beating your head against a wall, trying to get confirmation or any sort of apology from her or them. If they want to protect her, fine. Know that you still get to protect yourself in whatever way you find best. I had an ugly confrontation with mine years ago over the childhood abuses that basically ended with "it happened. So WHAT?". Spat at me with all the venom she had available, and I was supposed to just move on without another word. I broke the rules by bringing it up and in her mind I had to pay. Problem was, it hadn't stopped. The only difference was, now she can't hit me. The verbal and emotional abuses continued because I thought I had to take it. Breaking that took much longer and it's been painful but I KNOW I didn't and don't deserve any of it, and I'm not rolling over for it anymore. So we rarely talk now, less with every month that passes. And you know what? I'm a better person for it, truly I am. I'm finding kindness and gentleness and compassion instead of that anger and bitterness I hauled around for so long. That's HER, not me or who I want to be.

[easterncappy]

I had an ugly confrontation with mine years ago over the childhood abuses that basically ended with "it happened. So WHAT?". Spat at me with all the venom she had available, and I was supposed to just move on without another word. I broke the rules by bringing it up and in her mind I had to pay. Problem was, it hadn't stopped. The only difference was, now she can't hit me. The verbal and emotional abuses continued because I thought I had to take it.

Story of my life. I posted a while ago about the breaking point, the day I had this conversation with my mom... she seemed sympathetic for a little bit, because she is human after all, but then the PD coping mechanisms and excuses came out. "And what did you do to deserve it? So he's not good enough for you but his money is? That happened 20 years ago. You're religious, aren't you supposed to forgive people or something? What was I supposed to do, leave him? Then you'd never get nice Christmas gifts!". Well, okay mom. And she wonders where the "closeness" in our relationship went. Now she's trying to demand I hand over my daughter for "fun weekends with grandma and grandpa". Uh huh.

They did this with everyone. Once, my uncle assaulted my aunt (both are mentally ill dysfunctional weirdos but no one deserves to get beaten). I brought it up a day after it happened and the conversation had to get shut down. I was met with extreme hostility as if I was a bad person for remembering it and thinking it was screwed up. It was in the past, she probably did something to deserve it, he pays all the bills so she needs to suck it up, etc.

Bottom line is, there's no point. The coping mechanisms and excuses and disordered thinking and detachment from reality run so deep, you will likely never penetrate the thick shell of BS they use to justify everything. I've encountered "recovering narcissists" and they're only somewhat self-aware... and they relapse all of the time. And I wonder if they're only "recovering" as much as it can get them stuff they want. This kind of behavior comes so naturally to PD folks that even if they really, really meant it, you'd still have to keep them at a distance. You're only on this earth for a limited amount of time, why waste this precious time trying to accomplish the impossible? Spend time with your real loved ones, have hobbies, go on road trips, cook fun new recipes, get a puppy... anything but this, please. It won't get you anything but like, depressed and with low self-esteem.

[carrots]

And still she's the PARENT. She OWED you better even if that's not what she knew herself.

Thank you for saying that moglow.

The version I've heard on not bringing a certain type of abuse up is: she might commit suicide if I said it to her. I did once kind of mention it, she hasn't committed suicide. But in all that I wonder: "And me? Does FOO ever wonder how I am and how I get by without wanting to just throw it all in?" No, of course they don't. I'm not suicidal btw but sometimes the amount of healing still left to do is rather overwhelming...

Justme, if you do confront, may I suggest from experience that you are in a safe space in all senses of the word when you do so? I wasn't when I confronted enF with something and his verbal/emotional reaction was such that I completely and utterly dissociated. I left reality for a few days. Needless to say that didn't exactly up my standing with FOO. In their opinion I'm more volatile and crazy than they thought beforehand. The fact that enF's reaction was verbally and psychologically abusive and caused a huge retraumatisation is beyond them. Just to be clear, I experience different degrees of dissociation. The 'complete and utter' was not something I'd known about in advance and is not something I would wish to be repeat.

The verbal and emotional abuses continued because I thought I had to take it. Breaking that took much longer and it's been painful but I KNOW I didn't and don't deserve any of it, and I'm not rolling over for it anymore. So we rarely talk now, less with every month that passes. And you know what? I'm a better person for it, truly I am. I'm finding kindness and gentleness and compassion instead of that anger and bitterness I hauled around for so long. That's HER, not me or who I want to be.

moglow, have you written up anywhere on here how you broke those verbal and emotional abuses? Because I'm realising now how much the abuse is continuing despite my being VLC. I know boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, but I'd just be interested in reading more detail, if you wrote it. I am really happy for you that you're finding kindness, gentleness, compassion and that you're letting go of anger and bitterness. I wish I was that far along.

[moglow]

how you broke those verbal and emotional abuses? Because I'm realising now how much the abuse is continuing despite my being VLC. I know boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, but I'd just be interested in reading more detail, if you wrote it. I am really happy for you that you're finding kindness, gentleness, compassion and that you're letting go of anger and bitterness. I wish I was that far along.

Don't discount yourself, Carrots. You may be way further along than you think. I broke down with her, pushed and pushed mother to for the love of God get it OUT, put it down and find a way to carry on. I'd asked so many times that she let certain things go, that there was nothing to be done and we had to find a way forward. She claimed "you don't want to hear what I have to say" but NO, that's exactly what I do want to hear, I can't keep going like this wondering what the hell to do or how.

She dumped such a load of steaming manure from DECADES ago, even back to when we were kids, how I'd done [or not] this and that and then there was this or that and what about the time ... I let her run out of steam but I was just flabbergasted by the shite she'd hauled around and held against me. Nothing could be changed, it was all ancient history and long gone. But for her, it's as if she'd been holding on and replaying it in her mind as if it had just occurred. She'd lash out when she hit certain places in her monologue and I'd be blindsided all over again with no possible explanation. I mean, how do I possibly explain that to her??

I'd say it boiled down to me finally refusing to accept it anymore - I'm not responsible for how she *feels*, I'm responsible for my words and my actions just like everyone else. I had never set out to cause harm, but she was holding on to my failures to read her mind or the times I wasn't available for her, no recognition that I was doing my best with what I had at the time as well. One period of time she flung at me repeatedly, we'd had several deaths in the family [her husband and mother] plus I was personal representative for two of those family members [her ex/my Daddy and his mother]. I was REELING, deeply depressed, grieving, suicidal, self destructive - and she KNEW. In her mind I was expected to step up and take care of her and her neediness and I was barely functioning. And she resented it [still does], made that very clear. Even some 25+ years after the fact, she was flinging my "failures" back in my face, from a time I was also in need. Complete failure on her part to recognize she's still the parent. No comfort or compassion there whatsoever.

Mother broke something within me finally that I couldn't repair with her, made me realize that she was never going to let go of all that ugliness other than to spew it all over me at will. She wanted to be mad and to create drama and hurt people, pure and simple. I realize it was all a lot of gaslighting and her inner voices becoming her external reality, but she didn't want "more". She didn't want a better [or any] relationship with me, she wanted excuses and justifications for NOT having one. I realized there's a difference and it's not pretty. It was truly more important to her that she be seen as a martyr and object of pity than put forth even a modicum of effort or interest. I couldn't pretend anymore, not to myself or anyone else. Something snapped, after all the years.

I've talked with my brothers and compared memories, notes if you will, and none of us have happy memories of that woman. She doesn't seek out her own family and has no real relationship with any of us or her grandchildren. With gut-wrenching honesty, she won't be missed. She isn't now. I've shared in other threads, as of now I don't plan to talk to or see her. She's not blocked any more but I'm not seeking her out. If she called I'd talk to her without any need to share of myself [she's not that interested and it's doubtful she'd ask]. If forced by circumstances to be around her, I can be civil. I can be polite. I can and will remove myself if needed or freeze any ugliness out if need be. The realization that it's truly not personal - it can't be, because she has no idea who I am. She birthed and raised me and absolved herself of anything beyond that.

This is a level of indifference I never thought I'd see, had never imagined. It's left room for me to seek out kindness and compassion and gentleness and laughter - not at anyone else's expense or in comparison to, but all for its own sake. That straw that broke the camel's back was truly death by a thousand cuts, some bigger than others.

[carrots]

Thank you moglow for writing it out. Unfortunately, that's not a route I can take. I'll have to find my own way.