I am exhausted

[escapingman]

I think I finally got somewhere with the SW, she is now very aware of that PA is most likely happening. Wonderful DD told her in detail about how STBX tried to turn her against me. But without any evidence of it going on right now or a new incident I am unlikely to get anywhere with GC. So, STBX needs to lose it, soon. Only way for that is to be in situation where she can do that with an audience. DD has expressed her desire to see her, which I have allowed if it is supervised. The best bit of the conversation was that poor MIL had complained and asked the SW about her seeing DD, this one was quite funny as no one ever stopped her and she never asked to see her. DD actually contacted MIL a few months ago but was met with silent treatment, this will be thrown in her face as the SW didn't look impressed.

I just need to stay calm and give them rope......

[square]

This is hopeful, EM.

Really hoping SW has started to see the light.

And if she has, sounds like that would be thanks to your calm, centered, strong written pushback.

[hhaw]

I continue to be amazed by your DD's maturity and ability to stand up to the pressure and 'story" the SW and stbx/GC were floating and insisting DD buy and participate in.

DD speaking her truth, sharing with the SW exactly how stbx attempted to turn DD against you, EM....... that's not easy to do in the face of frustration and dfrawn out time lines without losing one's composure or completely losing control, IME.

STBX has a very narrowing window of opportunities to win this first visitation skirmish now that DD has used her voice and more importantly, been given a voice with SW.

I don't see how stbx can overcome that.

[escapingman]

The problem for me is that GC is still running with the narrative that I have been doing X, Y and Z planted in her head by STBX. SW seems to insist that until she can get the truth out of GC she can't recommend GC to come back to me. DD staying with me is almost a given now, at least if the SW told me the truth. SW suggested that she needs an incident or a revelation from GC before supporting me fully. This will come, I am sure it will. STBX and MIL's story is going down in flames at the moment. Both girls are now seeing a counsellor in school, if the counsellor gets told anything making him worried for safety he will alert the SW. I pushed for a specialist T for GC as well but SW thought that is to much right now. So right now, all I can do is keeping handing our rope for STBX and keep telling the truth to everyone. Hopefully I can push the SW a little bit more next time with the truth, but I cannot risk overwhelming her.

But I am deep down in this black hole, I have really got in a freeze state where I can't get myself to make me move forward. Everything in the house has been picked by STBX, I don't want it, I don't want to touch it and I don't want to see it. But there are some items that is mine and that I want, but to get my stuff I need to go through all of hers. I need to move out to fully move on, but without agreeing everything with someone that is only interested in an endless fight I am stuck. I need support, someone to talk to, a friend, my FOO has shown their true colours so I won't bother with them.

About DD, I am so proud of her. She really opened up and told SW her truth, that must have been hard. She apparently also told the SW that when she sees STBX on the supervised visit to not be fooled by STBX being nice to her as the true STBX is the one that abuses her. WOW. 

[escapingman]

It looks like DD will see STBX next week, if so with the social worker. I told DD it is OK to love both me and STBX, and it is OK to love her even though she has been a bit nasty to her. DD shouted at me " A LITTLE???????"

[SonofThunder]

It looks like DD will see STBX next week, if so with the social worker. I told DD it is OK to love both me and STBX, and it is OK to love her even though she has been a bit nasty to her. DD shouted at me " A LITTLE???????"

With the SW present at their get-together, and DD already not afraid to tell the raw truth of her experiences to other adults, that meeting may be a very truthful event for the SW. 

Imo, DD may not desire to feel loving feelings toward her mother at this time and may need the freedom and confidence to simply be herself, feeling how SHE wants to feel.  Im sure her mother has been trying to control DD's feelings, actions and reactions for a long time. This may be DD's time to air herself out a bit, especially with SW in the room.  My kids have surprised me many times how mature they can be; how self-managing they desire to be and fully capable. 

Being a nature/nurture caretaker/peacekeeper, i have to force myself to step out of the way and simply be waiting with a caring, silent hug with ready listening ears and my mouth zipped shut.

DD may greatly appreciate, as my kids did, for you to simply let her be her, even if its not love toward her bio-mother.

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks SoT, I have told DD that as long as she is safe she can do whatever she wants. But to say no if STBX asks her to do or agree to something she is not comfortable with. DD is very worried about being excessively cuddled and not knowing how to say no.

[SonofThunder]

Thanks SoT, I have told DD that as long as she is safe she can do whatever she wants. But to say no if STBX asks her to do or agree to something she is not comfortable with. DD is very worried about being excessively cuddled and not knowing how to say no.

Imo, true cuddling takes two willing participants, and anything not welcomed (even if only body language vs verbal) will probably be very apparent to the SW. Hopefully DD can just be true to her feelings, no matter what they are.  I will keep DD in thought and prayer to allow herself to be true to herself and open about it in the visit.

SoT

[escapingman]

I must say, if I am allowed, I am proud of myself for not getting emotional about DD seeing her. I am of course feeling a hurt that STBX will be allowed to see DD but I am not seeing GC, but that's about GC. DD feels bad about this but I have told her that her relationship with her mother has nothing to do with my relationship with GC. That has taken some practice for me to calmly tell myself, in the past I would have tried to control this to make sure DD is safe. It's not for me to make sure DD is safe, it's for the social worker to make sure and DD will be able to look after herself.

[SonofThunder]

I must say, if I am allowed, I am proud of myself for not getting emotional about DD seeing her. I am of course feeling a hurt that STBX will be allowed to see DD but I am not seeing GC, but that's about GC. DD feels bad about this but I have told her that her relationship with her mother has nothing to do with my relationship with GC. That has taken some practice for me to calmly tell myself, in the past I would have tried to control this to make sure DD is safe. It's not for me to make sure DD is safe, it's for the social worker to make sure and DD will be able to look after herself.

I agree, you are being very calm and self-controlling your own feelings.  You can surely be proud of yourself.  Keep up the good self-control EM! 😃

SoT

[square]

Indeed, EM, good job.

I think it's yet another manifestation of boundaries, to be able to say "this is my stuff" and "this is not my stuff."

[hhaw]

EM:

How is DD's request for an apology from her mum going?  Has she received an apology yet?

If I was you.... I'd stick to discussions about what DD wants to accomplish at this meeting, how she intends to ask and what she'll do if she feels she needs to break off the visit. 

Like Square said.....
boundaries.  DD is learning where she begins and where her mum ends. Concrete discussion about healthy boundaries seems warranted, IMO.

DD needs permission and validation to continue advocating for herself.  Now more than ever. 

If I was her, and I wanted that apology from mum.... I'd also want to know WHY she did what mum did it and how she planned to stop being abusive going forward.  I'd want an admission and a plan for dealing with the reasons the abuse happened in the first place. 

Certainly, that's an overtly reasonable request from DD and one that should have a pretty good chance of pushing stbx over an edge.

Besides that, yu get points for not standing in the way of DD reuniting with her mum while GC continues proving your point.... stbx is alienating GC and forcing her to choose sides.

The evidence will continue falling like dominoes.

[escapingman]

hhaw,

There has been no apology, DD is incredible unhappy about this and both me and DD has highlighted this to the SW. I stated the fact that since no apology has been given, there can be no remorse from her side. DD has requested it again and has told the SW that she expect an apology from her mum when they meet. I followed your advice and told DD to ask her mum why she treated her like she did and what she is going to do about it going forward. With the reaction from DD to that I think that could be to much for her, but we will see. I think the only reason DD want the meeting is that she misses her mum and wants to see her, but she is not sure how she will feel about continue seeing her. I will just have to let DD deal with this, I can only do my best to allow DD her wishes and at the same time hand over some rope to STBX. I also hope this will look good on me in the ongoing discussions.

It looks like I have to play the waiting game, this means I need time and for the legal process to take enough time until she finally is exposed. But it really is taking its toll on me and I am not doing very well mentally myself with zero support network. I have a few new friends but they are way to new to unload on, my other friends are far away and can only support remotely.

[hhaw]

A quote from The Art of War by Sun Tzu......

"If you know the enemy and yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 battles." 

That seems to be how divorce with a PD goes, if we stay out of the way and do what we can, IME.  Let the PDs show everyone the truth.  Eventually they run out of benefits of the doubt and bites at the apple, IME.

I remember reading that book during my divorce.... and the part about enemies turning members of our inner circle againt us, as the best strategy for beating us, should have clued me in, but I was shocked every time it happened. 

Something to keep in mind when choosing the best time to deal with your FOO.

[escapingman]

hhaw, I have no energy to deal with my FOO at the moment. I just have to keep as low contact as possible until I feel strong enough to do it, I don't want to go no contact with them as DD still enjoy their company. STBX and them have no contact so I doubt she would take that route, MIL however I wouldn't hesitate trying to use them if she had the opportunity.

I know STBX and MIL inside out and can pretty much guess the next step in all situations. MIL is much more manipulative than STBX which makes her very dangerous, STBX feels very entitled and that is what is going to bring her down in the end. When she see DD she will in her head believe that DD now has fallen in line and she will try to get her under control as soon as possible, if DD pushes back she will not be able to take it. I just hope DD is strong enough to do that, but if she isn't and feel that she can't stand up to her I am pretty sure she will want to stop seeing her. I spoke to my solicitor about the contact and I don't have to agree to any unsupervised contact, SW is trying to force this but I won't accept it. For STBX it is going to be a massive blow to her ego to have to be supervised to see DD, this could be enough to trigger a response - hopefully.

Right now, all I can do is to work on my self and sit tight. Keep breathing and try to get myself out of the hole I am in.

[hhaw]

SW is a goober.  My God.....pushing for DD to endure unsupervised visits with Mum , when SW has HEARD the tapes and stbx lable DD with cruelty and blame is such a dumb move.

I guess stbx is dramatic and victim posturing while you tell your side in a more stoic fashion...and both have an impact.

Remember, you can make promises and break them too. 

Sometimes, recently, I'm so envious of the PD's range if choices.  Anything is possible to get their way.   Anything.

Then I remember their hard drives are flawed in profound ways and..... more choice, for tgem, is ruinous in every direction.

Less, well intentioned choice is the only choice, but.....Im always wishing for for more choice.  Like my brain is pushing up against a very real and limiting glass ceiling and..... my old programming and is still in place, but I want so badly to see and be what's beneath. 

You're in the trenches.  Smack in the abyss.  The only certainty is it won't last forever and you benefit from cultivating emotional distance and gaining expanded perspective.

You'll be a better, more rested tactituan and you see how things go when stbx us allowed to lead this process.

Her attorney will continue asking you for harmful compromise.

You'll get very sturdy with refusals to compromise dd's safety. 

Why does SW think GC uscrefusing to see you?  I think stbx has poisoned GC against you so badly that GC won't or can't change on a dime and be kind to you, as stbx is likely asking her to for show.

So far, a few nice texts have been lobbed your way, but stbx has big problems as SW pressures them for GC/Dad visitation.

You see how DD is being pressured and also wants to see her mom.

Based on DD's statements and your evidence it's going to be hard and harder for SW to square stbx's story up.

GC's alienation may well be the thing that turns SW against stbx.

Hard to say.

I hope you ride out the darkness with some trust......the light is coming.  You will feel joy again, likely soon.  Putting the divorce on the shelf, to turn towards what' real, in the moment, is a choice available to you all the time.

Remembering is the tricky part.

[escapingman]

I think SW is very aware of the parental alienation and that is what she is trying to figure out,. GC is currently running a script given by STBX to blame me and tell that I was the abusive one. There is zero evidence for this and I even provided evidence to prove it wasn't true. However for some reason, as long as GC keeps telling these lies it seems like SW is giving her the benefit of the doubt - maybe this is the protocol, I don't know. But as DD really opened up last time I could see a big shift in the SW, I could actually talk about alienation with her and I could see that she believe me but need proof. A big moment was when I exposed MIL's crying for not seeing DD when no one actually stopped her but herself. SW said she need an incident, boy do I hope something happens when DD and STBX meet. Boy do I hope GC slip up on her lies as she cannot remember what she has said and what STBX is feeding her from day to day. Boy do I hope STBX and/or MIL slip up again, their story only exist in their heads. I have told my story, now DD is telling hers, in a calm way, but the truth. She has so much to say, how MIL has been stone walling her outside school, how STBX used to shout at her, how STBX hit her at times, how STBX and GC tried to turn her against me. It's all there for her to tell, and she is doing it.

We are going away for a week soon, I hope to get refreshed and to have enough energy to get things going with life outside of the divorce.

[SonofThunder]

I think SW is very aware of the parental alienation and that is what she is trying to figure out,. GC is currently running a script given by STBX to blame me and tell that I was the abusive one. There is zero evidence for this and I even provided evidence to prove it wasn't true. However for some reason, as long as GC keeps telling these lies it seems like SW is giving her the benefit of the doubt - maybe this is the protocol, I don't know. But as DD really opened up last time I could see a big shift in the SW, I could actually talk about alienation with her and I could see that she believe me but need proof. A big moment was when I exposed MIL's crying for not seeing DD when no one actually stopped her but herself. SW said she need an incident, boy do I hope something happens when DD and STBX meet. Boy do I hope GC slip up on her lies as she cannot remember what she has said and what STBX is feeding her from day to day. Boy do I hope STBX and/or MIL slip up again, their story only exist in their heads. I have told my story, now DD is telling hers, in a calm way, but the truth. She has so much to say, how MIL has been stone walling her outside school, how STBX used to shout at her, how STBX hit her at times, how STBX and GC tried to turn her against me. It's all there for her to tell, and she is doing it.

We are going away for a week soon, I hope to get refreshed and to have enough energy to get things going with life outside of the divorce.

   I will be keeping you and your family in thoughts and prayer for the upcoming meeting. 

SoT

[escapingman]

I am really concerned for DD at the moment, GC is heavily love bombing her, I am not sure exactly what her reasons are. I am pretty sure that it is part of the game to get DD back in under control of STBX. There is no way DD will fall for that and if it shows that was the case she will not be happy. DD told me that the first thing GC asked her when they met on their own was if she was going to see STBX. But, DD has started speaking now and if they couldn't turn her against me when still living in the same house I doubt the succeed now. I feel so sorry for DD being used like this, I hope SW will see what is going on. But SW seems to be very naive when it comes to GC and not understanding that she is a flying monkey and currently is the main supply for STBX. GC would do anything for STBX at the moment, I feel so sorry for her, but with no access to her I can't do anything.  All I can do is hope for a slipup, and obviously look at way to provoke STBX and MIL to get a reaction. The best way to provoke them is to expose more truth.

But to be honest, I am frightened by DD seeing STBX, how will she react? They haven't really seen each other since STBX moved out.

[SonofThunder]

Unknowns are always more frightening than knowns, and the way to convert them is through time and purposeful experience.  DD is very mature for her age and has a strong backbone.  Imo, DD simply needs dad to supply quiet confidence in her to handle herself in this situation vs being hand-held, and it sounds as if you are doing that, so great job. 

Time and experience will answer your unknown.  DD will be self-strong if you have calm confidence in her to handle herself and her feelings and also know that she has warm hugs and a listening ear from Dad 24/7.   

Keep voicing your concerns here, as we understand how scary unknowns can be and as parents, how difficult it is when our children are learning critical life lessons in self management. 

Keep up the great calm confidence EM. 

SoT