I am exhausted

[escapingman]

Thanks SoT

Yes I have told her she do what she feels comfortable doing, and that it is OK to leave together with SW if she doesn't feel good. She will talk about her concerns with SW herself so I leave it with her, she has matured off the scale since STBX left.

[Rose1]

I found it necessary to help my teenager daughter give herself permission to leave. There's so many things to worry about.
Am I being rude?
How do I get home?
What if the parent stops me?
What about my stuff?

So we had a plan. Walk out if you feel uncomfortable. Phone me and I will get you. If necessary phone in the bathroom. Walk out without your bag, it doesn't matter and we can get it later.
If all else fails grab a cab and I will pay for it when you get home.
When she was older she always had cab fare because the problem isn't just pd parents and their friends.

What if the driver is intoxicated or you're not comfortable with a friends driving? Don't worry about power pressure, get a cab.
That has saved lives and we talked about that.

[hhaw]

When is DD visiting with stbx?

[escapingman]

They have met. Haven't heard much but it went pretty much as expected, STBX put on a show of lovebombing but no apology. I think DD is overwhelmed but when she settles down I don't think she will be happy with it. SW still don't get it and had asked DD about seeing her grandmother  again, DD had to point out that noone stopped MIL from seeing her and that she has been ignored for haf a year by her.

I am sick and tired of the games STBX and MIL are playing.

[escapingman]

Having had some more talks with DD, it sounds like she is convinced STBX and MIL have fallen out. I am not surprised. That would put an interesting spin on the whole thing, and also put STBX under immense pressure. SW was making conversation to them and every time she mentioned MIL STBX made a quick snarky comment and ended the conversation.

[escapingman]

I wonder how much is needed to prove Parental Alienation? DD told in detail about how STBX and GC tried to manipulate her against me, still the SW is allowing GC to decide if she wants to see me or not. This morning I past her again and when she saw me she looked down immediately and pretended to be on her phone. One sign of parental alienation is that the subject child rejects everyone in the target parents family, GC does this. If a child rejects a parent because of abuse they will not reject the whole family. Why can't so called experts see this? It's rapidly getting closer to the hearing and the SW's recommendation of custody. SW still think that MIL is a safe person and should be the one supervising STBX and DD seeing each other, I can't think of anything more dangerous. Both me and DD has categorically said no to this, but SW still push for it. SW is even pushing for MIL and DD to meet up. Why? They haven't seen each other for half a year only because MIL has been giving DD the silent treatment and have been stone walling her. But at the same time, I am not allowed to see GC.

I have  tried to put all this to one side and started being indifferent, I am not sure if I use the term correct but snapped it up from SoT. Since I started this I have slept better, not much ruminations and few nightmares with STBX featuring in them. I have been taking help from a few scotch before bedtime at times, and also eaten nutritional yeast before bed time. Apparently nutritional yeast is full of  B vitamins and is directly affecting and calming down the limbic system, it seems to help for me (unless it is the scotch). I am also trying to do the fortress help by Richard Grannon, the five finger tip is awesome https://www.youtube.com/c/FortressMentalHealthProtectionSystem . I recently listened to the book running on empty and also divorce poison. I feel very educated on what I should do and what STBX is doing. It's frustrating to almost be overeducated, but hopefully I will have good use of this in the end.

[Associate of Daniel]

All of the education will help you to gain an ability to practise Radical Acceptance.  I have found both to be invaluable over the years.  I don't think I've reached a level of indifference yet and I admit I struggle with indifference being a goal in the journey.  But we all need to find our own way of thinking and coping.

AOD

[escapingman]

I have accepted that STBX is mentally ill and that she lives in a parallel fantasy world, there is nothing I can do to change her mind. I can see that she really think she is right and that she is a victim in all this, and I am the perpetrator and has to be punished (or fall in line and get back with her under her control). But I really only feel hate for MIL, she is the most devious manipulative person I ever met. I blame her for how STBX is as I know STBX is traumatised by her, the stories I have been told has shaking my core - when STBX had some moments of clarity (very rarely) she shared what was going on in her childhood (and adulthood). Everyone outside the family thinks the sun shines out of MIL's a**e and could never in a million years believe how horrible of a person she is and how much she slags everyone off behind their backs. MIL managed to get her hands of an inheritance that should have been going to STBX and managed to get STBX grateful for handing out a fraction of that as a gift to her. That my child now is living in that house is killing me from inside, not because of STBX but MIL. STBX I can take on as I know her inside out, but MIL, she is a different league. No one think an old lady in her seventies could be that evil.

To add about MIL, I am sure she must be a psychopath and able to keep herself under control at all times. Once she told us that you can afford to be mean to you family as they can't leave anyway. FIL was an over narc and I think that suited her very well and she manipulated him and hid behind his rage.

And a great video explaining this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dv8zJiggBs

[SonofThunder]

I wonder how much is needed to prove Parental Alienation? DD told in detail about how STBX and GC tried to manipulate her against me, still the SW is allowing GC to decide if she wants to see me or not. This morning I past her again and when she saw me she looked down immediately and pretended to be on her phone. One sign of parental alienation is that the subject child rejects everyone in the target parents family, GC does this. If a child rejects a parent because of abuse they will not reject the whole family. Why can't so called experts see this? It's rapidly getting closer to the hearing and the SW's recommendation of custody. SW still think that MIL is a safe person and should be the one supervising STBX and DD seeing each other, I can't think of anything more dangerous. Both me and DD has categorically said no to this, but SW still push for it. SW is even pushing for MIL and DD to meet up. Why? They haven't seen each other for half a year only because MIL has been giving DD the silent treatment and have been stone walling her. But at the same time, I am not allowed to see GC.

I have  tried to put all this to one side and started being indifferent, I am not sure if I use the term correct but snapped it up from SoT. Since I started this I have slept better, not much ruminations and few nightmares with STBX featuring in them. I have been taking help from a few scotch before bedtime at times, and also eaten nutritional yeast before bed time. Apparently nutritional yeast is full of  B vitamins and is directly affecting and calming down the limbic system, it seems to help for me (unless it is the scotch). I am also trying to do the fortress help by Richard Grannon, the five finger tip is awesome https://www.youtube.com/c/FortressMentalHealthProtectionSystem . I recently listened to the book running on empty and also divorce poison. I feel very educated on what I should do and what STBX is doing. It's frustrating to almost be overeducated, but hopefully I will have good use of this in the end.

EM and AoD, since I was mentioned in EM's comment, i will reframe my opinions on indifference using an analogy. I don't believe this is a thread detour, but rather clarity on a term's meaning for me. I will circle back to the 'exhausted' thread topic at the end.   

For what its worth, i believe 'radical acceptance' is a PD-boat that comes around the upstream bend in a fully circular-flowing wide river, sees my dock is empty, and decides to stop without an invite. 🤬  The PD disembarks, causes emotional turmoil in my life and then departs downstream again on the circular journey.  My PD education surely helps me understand the motive of why this happens repetitively with these disordered people, but previously in the fog, I had no idea. 

My previous mental step of  'radical acceptance' (still so very hard to do) takes each ridiculous turmoil-experience, ties it to a stone, and flings it out into the river to sink in the mud.  Its out if sight, but very-very tough to keep out of mind.  But... eventually, the pile of experience stones grows very large and starts to cause its own negative changes in my harbor, therefore causing its own emotional turmoil in my life, even without the PD boat being docked!!  😡

Therefore, after the heavy load of hauling off the previous acceptance-stones, I now understand the future growing stone pile needs to be reduced, but know it will never be eliminated.  So, to reduce the number of stones, I have to find ways to reduce or eliminate the number of times my dock is available for emotional turmoil.  The real boundary-tool for me is making sure my dock is very difficult for the PD boat to even approach, but the dock must remain available for me and my needs, which takes detailed planning, execution and maintenance. And understanding that radical acceptance is still necessary for the turmoil that now occurs less frequently.   

Therefore I had to go one step further in creative education, from the stone-piling 'radical acceptance'  to the addition of 'indifference', which is my detachment from emotional dock-availability in the first place, but still caring that the PD's river-circling boat remains seaworthy like every other boater on the river. Im not an uncaring asshole.

Part of my indifference Its recognizing that 99% of the PD's needs can be met by a variety of other people's docks and those people are not turmoiled as much as me by the PD, because of the more outer circle's of relationship they have with the PD. If the PD becomes tumultuous for them, i must let them adult themselves regarding their own dock and emotions.

So, in that deep-dive education, i better understand my PD's boat type, boat capability and emotional needs and I altered my harbor to 'indifference' so that my dock approach is way too shallow for the PD's boat to dock.  But, each time the PD boat comes back around, i still hear some cursing from out on the river because they know I altered my harbor.  There are also still some times when the PD makes a grand effort and rows to shore on a smaller dinghy, but those emotional turmoil times are reduced because grand efforts are not really in the normal wheel-house from my PD's when other people's docks more readily available.  Lol, the other adults with docks on the river sometimes reach out to me and ask me why I am sending the PD to their dock, and my answer is true:  I dont control the PD, but only my harbor and myself. 

Now, there are plenty of other boats that ride around the river and I care about all those people as fellow human beings. I can be wisely 'indifferent' but still reserve care for when true care is needed, to hopefully prevent a catastrophe on the river. If any of those other boaters truly need my assistance in an emergency, I am a helpful person. But otherwise, until they radio me their last-ditch SOS and I determine that they truly cant help themselves, I don't pay any mental attention to those other boats other than watching them float on by (indifference). 

So, in 'indifference', I'm simply trying to consider my PD's boat as 'just another boat on the river'. 

EM, im glad to read you have found ways to not allow the creative PD to tie up at your emotional dock as much.  Shes going to make some grand efforts to come ashore but glad to read you are finding mental ways to alter and maintain your harbor and hopefully the 'I'm exhausted' will get steadily calmer and more energized.  Hang in there brother, you are not alone. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Hi user,

You wrote:  "If a random gal is acting the way she acts in her PD rages, I wouldn't give it a second thought...it's that emotional connection that makes it impact us."

Exactly! I fully agree. That emotional connection is why indifference is, imo, so difficult with our PD people and not difficult with strangers. But, because we CAN do it successfully with strangers, we 100% know we have the power in us to strive toward emotionally detaching with our PD's to treat them the same as we do other random people.  So therefore I desire to treat my PD's as equal with the other boats on the river; which means I respect them as individuals and adults with rights, but not docking in my harbor.  Frankly, the emotionally tumultuous PD doesn't even deserve the same respect as those random strangers who circle the river, but again im not going to be the asshole, so indifference with strong boundaries is as far as I can go.  Adding to the dilemma of unraveling the emotional connection to indifference, these PD's purposefully make that connection way too tight, as we become an unbalanced, unhealthy host that they feed on.  So unwinding the unhealthy connection to us is quite a necessary, difficult and painful journey. 

I believe this is what EM is talking about when he wrote:

"I have tried to put all this to one side and started being indifferent......Since I started this I have slept better, not much ruminations and few nightmares with STBX featuring in them."   

The other boaters on my river may be having all kinds of drama going on in their lives, but because they don't attempt to bring their drama boat to my dock, I could care less. They can adult themselves.  It seems EM has been recently successful in thinking about his stbx as "just another boat on the river".  Problem is though, his child also lives on his stbx's boat for now, so therefore he's very mentally aware of this one particular boat, yet doing a stronger, calmer job of ignoring it's captain, yet keeping his eye keenly on the vessel.  Hopefully one of these trips around the river, EM's stbx may legally have to tender GC from the boat, back to EM's dock, either permanently or part of the time, and then EM will probably notice stbx's vessel even less, each time it circles back around the river.

Yes, physical, situational and emotionally self-protective boundaries were necessary for me, and ultimately i had to enact the largest physical boundary, by moving out.  Ultimately a divorce is not only a legal boundary but also has a great way of assisting in further detaching that emotional connection, although the detaching process is surely a painful one.  Obviously because of my long history with my own stbx, there will always be some emotional connection that exists, and I think thats actually good, because its just a part of me being an emotionally healthy human.

Regarding my adoption of indifference:  Even when sharing the same home, i tried matching my PD's discard as a tactic, but I just couldn't make myself be the asshole. So therefore indifference to the entire IDD cycle and drama triangle, and indifference to my uPDw's reaction to my steady disconnecting emotional attachment, was necessary in order to mentally (and therefore physically) protect myself in the process.   

I boundary-altered my harbor specifically by educating myself, understanding her and knowing the limitations of my uPDw's boat, while keeping my harbor/dock access still available to my own vessel and my own needs. My harbor became too much for my PD to try and navigate, so in a last effort to get me to reverse my protective harbor alterations, she cranked up the manipulation in the only neutral areas left, and that was my clear indicator to enact the divorce boundary.  I think EM's experiences are the same and Im glad to read he is sleeping better, which is a huge plus in the middle of an exhausting detachment process. 

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

Great post, SonofThunder. You put into words many of my thoughts and feelings about my situation. Thank you.

[SonofThunder]

Great post, SonofThunder. You put into words many of my thoughts and feelings about my situation. Thank you.

Poison Ivy,

It's remarkable how so many of us have the same experiences, and glad to have all these Out of the FOG comrades in the exhausting journey of self-protection that causes such tremendous fallout in our lives, and the lives of our loved ones. Thanks for your kind words.  We are not alone. 

SoT

[escapingman]

That is well wrotten SoT, thank you.

First vacation without STBX and not seeing FOO. Is this life that I have missed out for so long. Taking every minute as they come, no stress, no chasing around ticking off activities and sights. The day seem to have so many more hours than before when everything had to follow a set schedule and any failure to following that ending in chaos.

This is life.

[SonofThunder]

That is well wrotten SoT, thank you.

First vacation without STBX and not seeing FOO. Is this life that I have missed out for so long. Taking every minute as they come, no stress, no chasing around ticking off activities and sights. The day seem to have so many more hours than before when everything had to follow a set schedule and any failure to following that ending in chaos.

This is life.

Wonderful report EM!  SO glad you had a great vacation!

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks SoT, we are still on the vacation for another week. It's amazing how all these small mishaps can just be a fun memory instead of full blown rage incident. Me and DD had a pizza yesterday, when the waiter came he spilt beer on my feet making them wet. Not ideal but shit happens, told hom it was fine. Me and DD looked at each other and started laughing about what a scene that would have been with STBX and if it was her feet.

I do struggle a bit though as GC should be here. DD tells me she is a different person with and without STBX and that she us fed up with the manipulations and just want her sister back. I really hope GC can get out the FOG or that we get some other breakthrough.

[SonofThunder]

Thanks SoT, we are still on the vacation for another week. It's amazing how all these small mishaps can just be a fun memory instead of full blown rage incident. Me and DD had a pizza yesterday, when the waiter came he spilt beer on my feet making them wet. Not ideal but shit happens, told hom it was fine. Me and DD looked at each other and started laughing about what a scene that would have been with STBX and if it was her feet.

I do struggle a bit though as GC should be here. DD tells me she is a different person with and without STBX and that she us fed up with the manipulations and just want her sister back. I really hope GC can get out the FOG or that we get some other breakthrough.

Oh great!  Enjoy your continued vacation!  Lol yes, i can surely imagine the scene of laughter between you and DD after a pause of truthful understanding in a silent look at each other.  Enjoy the normality for a change! 

Keeping you and your kids in thought and prayer.

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

EM,

Great to hear about your vacation.

Both my parents are disordered. Seeing parents like you here on the forum is very good to see and know you are fighting for your kids to have a good future. As a teen I can say it was very hard finding a way Out of the FOG without either parent there to 'get it'.

I'm glad your DD has you. Enjoy the vacation!!

You are a good parent and I'm also hoping things improve between you and GC soon. Hold true to your values!

Trees

[escapingman]

Thanks trees,  but I don't feel like a good parent at all. I feel I let my kids down and for staying so long. I should have ended this 5 years ago, now rhey might have traumas and GC I dread thinking about.

[escapingman]

Also still having too many FFFF that kick in which makes me angry and disappointed with myself. I hope I can get rid of at least some of the responsen.

I didn't really realise the extent of the,abuse towards DD, I should have protected her better. So much went on behind my back when I thought things were better with me out of the house. DD is getting so much better, buy she has her responses too - but we are mostly doing alright.

[escapingman]

STBX seems to have started a new tactic, it is so obvious and it is making me and DD sick. Just a month ago GC ignored DD and didn't even say hello. Now she is bombarding DD with messages and is trying to arrange a meet up. They are supposed to slowly with some supervision rebuild there relationship but now it's full on going out together. I have no objection with them seeing each other, but it has to be arranged NOW. DD has rejected a couple of days suggested but GC just keep pushing her. I can hardly see this being GC but STBX with a hidden agenda, or the agenda is not very hidden to me as the SW is supposed to give her recommendation soon and then the next heard g is coming. If I wasn't so cynical I could almost think they are going to try to make DD change her story..... I think they meeting up can wait until SW has completed her report, but I have a feeling the interest from GC has cooled down. STBX using GC as a flying monkey has to explode in her face at some time.

Having been away on vacation with DD fir a week has put some distance to it all snd I feel quite good and recharged. Being in a new environment with nothing reminding me if STBX is so good. Watching DD just enjoy the holiday is so therapeutic.