Worth Negotiating?

[Danie]

I've written extensively about sharing a cabin with BIL and SIL that hasn't worked for me. I've made it clear I want to sell it, but now I'm being asked to try and re-negotiate the situation. It's part of an HOA that is 3 hours away and the other owners are from the same small town. So it's a tight-knit group and an extension of their small town. BIL, SIL, H and I are the 4 owners. In 17 years SIL has refused to talk to me about anything. So I've been really confused about "how to share". We've ended up hauling up a lot of stuff, when we go, then taking it all back home, which is a lot of work and defies the purpose. We've tried to talk to her, but she will not meet with us and we were told all communication goes through BIL. For me, that's a deal-breaker. It implies something is "wrong" plus she has the tendency to complain after the fact through her husband. If we re-negotiate I want it clear that if we choose to leave something there or change something and she won't respond at the time then she has no say.

Also, I don't want BIL contacting us there when we are vacationing. Do you think this is fair to ask? The pattern has been BIL gets a hold of H about how things are there or about fixing something. It totally takes away from me being there when they are texting half the day. BIL wants this cabin relationship with his brother (I understand) but it's not really his right to be be rude to me and take our time when we're there. I don't trust BIL and he has zero respect for me and is totally rude. As I said earlier, this whole HOA is an extension of their hometown and BIL/H family life growing up where BIL was the baby and also controlled the family.

I think it's best to get out of it. My H wants to keep it and there's a strong possibility he will with his BIL and family and I will be out. The relationships couldn't be worse. I don't see ever mending things with SIL so this would have to be just business. My H claims he can act like it's just business, but he and brother want to have a relationship, which is good, but unfortunately I'm in the middle and whenever something gets broken or we're setting a schedule the boundaries I've asked for are gone.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[DaisyGirl77]

I'm not up on all this stuff so am guessing/educated guesses, IDK.

1.  They want you to renegotiate?  Renegotiate what?  The sale?  Do they not want you to sell?

2.  Your SIL refuses to engage & says all goes through BIL.  Are you expected to renegotiate with her?  If so, how tf are you supposed to do that with a woman who refuses to talk to you?  That's being held hostage, not a negotiation.

3.  If the 2nd is the case, I'd issue an ultimatum.  No more negotiations.  You've negotiated enough, which has meant being run roughshod over for X years while they've had nothing of the kind.  It's their turn.  They don't wanna?  Tough cookies.  You're done.  You do the same thing SIL has done all these years, which is all communications are done via the brothers, with the wives out of the picture.  It sounds like you've never wanted to be in the middle, but they've forcibly placed you in the role.  Break it.  Every time your hubby goes, "Honey, the bro wants X on the cabin" cut him off.  You don't wanna hear it.  You're done.  Tell him to set it on fire, that's how little you care of the albatross.

Let the wheels fall off.  They will either start riding, or the bike will fall apart.  Their choice.  You're done & out of it.

If they're wanting to negotiate how long before you put the place on the market, no.  How many more negotiations do you have to renegotiate before they follow through on the negotiations they've negotiated in the first place?  How much more time?

[Rebel13]

This is a tough situation because it sounds like you don't have anyone on your side. I think the issue about your brother-in-law contacting your husband while you are at the cabin is a boundary issue between you and your husband. If he doesn't respect your request to focus on your vacation time together rather than discussing cabin issues with his brother, or working on said issues, I would see that as a problem to work on within the relationship, rather than trying to control what your brother-in-law does or doesn't do.

Regarding the whole cabin issue, again, it's tough. It sounds like you are out there on your own since your husband seems to be more aligned with his brother's wishes. DaisyGirl's suggestion to remove yourself from anything to do with the topic might be the best you can do, unless and until your husband is willing to work on it with you as a team and support at least some of your desires.

I wish you luck with this!

[square]

If ypur finances are seperate, you could offer that either the other three or just your husband buy you out.

Then your boundary with your husband is you don't go and you don't discuss it.

With the money you can buy yourself another place or equipment or access to another relaxation, hobby, or whatever.

I don't know your dynamic in terms of whether you and/or husband enjoy pursuing time alone.

I don't see this list of rules working out.

[Danie]

It's confusing to me why my husband caters to his brother - over me. Well, I'm done trying to analyze. I've done all this except stop the discussion if it comes up. I could afford my own place, but it feels lonely. Knowing that, I can work on that.

It IS a boundary my husband won't respect - you're right!

Made new therapy appointment today. Thanks all.

[JLS]

It's confusing to me why my husband caters to his brother - over me.

This right here seems to be a large part of the problem. A few things come to mind. If SIL doesn't want to communicate with you and wants communication to go through BIL, that is her boundary.  A boundary is for yourself only not to control other people. Her boundary is - I'm not talking about this issue with you.

I don't think it's fair to ask BIL not to call when you are there.  You cannot control other people and when they communicate in their relationships. You are part owners which means that for some of the time when you are vacationing there you will need to help with repairs unless you want to pay someone to do it for you.  Repairs are simply part of maintaining property you own.

As for not knowing how to share and lugging a large amount of stuff there, what does your husband say, where is he in all of this.  Perhaps it would be less stressful if you ask your questions to him and he talks to his brother.  If it is a shared place I would assume leaving things behind would be a no considering you also wouldn't want the place filled with their things when you visit.

My question is, do you enjoy vacationing there? If you are visiting how many times is his brother calling, is it many times a day or just a couple of phone calls.  This is something to be worked out with your husband.

It seems the problem is more that when you bring things up your husband is siding with his brother and you may possibly feel rejected.  All the actions you are taking seem to me like you are trying to feel in control in a situation where you are completely out of control. No one is listening, no one is agreeing with you and it's become a battlefield.

This cabin is all centered around your husband and his brother's childhood and their memories.  Did you have a different vision in your head for marriage.  Did you think you would create your own memories and space?  Do you feel like you have a voice in the marriage?  This cabin and vacationing, is this something you want for your family, is this the memories you wanted to make. How did you see yourself vacationing in your marriage?  Is your husband dismissive in other areas throughout your marriage?  When you bring it up with him does he listen to you?

I feel you are looking so hard at BIL and SIL.  Stop and look within.  What is underneath this, that is what you really need to work out.

[Danie]

Yes I did want to create my own memories with my husband. I had a terrible childhood and really don't have much family of my own. I was excited, at first, to share and spend time with them and it was painful and shocking to get such confusing and cold treatment. I guess I figured out pretty soon that perhaps it was more of a financial sharing than a relationship sharing.

Trying to communicate with SIL was more about making use of the space and sharing common items - it's small and they have a family of 5 (growing now that boyfriends go) so in my mind figuring out supplies together makes sense. She wouldn't talk to me AT ALL. BIL asked me for her to make curtains for their bedroom (which I did) but she wouldn't even answer a text that had pictures of 3 choices of fabric. I don't try to talk to her any more, It seems like a rigid boundary and one that makes "sharing a cabin" extremely difficult, but if that's her boundary I can respect it. Perhaps I was trying to control things.

Nothing has changed (not surprisingly) but I went once a couple of weeks ago. My husband and I drive separately so I can leave when I need to, which I did. I just brought my own stuff that I needed and a couple of microwave and fresh food items. Last summer I cleared out all my things thinking I would never go back. I did have a nice time. It's nice there. I would like to keep it if I could feel comfortable.

So maybe this is just a financial deal with BIL and my husband (my only close family). It seems like BIL is now working on my H to sign something so BIL's kids will inherit it. He literally said to me,  "I don't want your mother or sisters to get it when you die". I think I have a good 20-30 years left to live. Plus, our half is about $100,000.00 and BIL thinks he's entitled to that after the way he's treated me. In addition to marital money we bought it with, I used my inherited money from my grandmother for the down payment - I'm not giving it to them.

The cabin needs some work. The ground is wet and the foundation is sinking in a couple of areas. BIL says to H: "We can't get up there for a while". He never, ever asks if there's something that needs to be taken care of. He just assumes my H will do it. Plus he wants everything up and running for him when he gets there.

So I have had 5 appointments in June and July with a therapist over this and it has been really helpful. He said H should be the one dealing with BIL not me so I have stayed out of it even though my husband tries to to get me involved. As I said, I'll just go, to the cabin, with my own little backpack and some microwave dishes, drive myself and enjoy it while I can. I've also planned some other vacations by myself (without H) so I can enjoy my summer and re-gain some autonomy and trust myself again.

My sister in law has prominently displayed a pillow on the sofa in the (tiny) living room there that says: FAMILY in embroidered letters. Ha-ha. That's funny! So I'm making a pillow that says: TIMESHARE for the other love seat. Also, my therapist thought it was so funny how she accused me of hoarding condiments and butter and water. I'm glad he's pointing out the humor in this.

To be continued!

[bloomie]

Danie - you are finding your way in all of this.

I was struck by the atmosphere of exclusion and invalidation that your describe encountering. It hurts to be side lined this way when we have gone into something with such high hopes. I imagine your H doesn't get it because he is not treated this way and has a bond with, and communication with, his family that has been denied you for simply existing.

I am thankful to hear you were able to go and enjoy the cabin and that you will stand firm about letting your H deal with his family. One of the best things I did for myself with painful in law interactions was to disengage from decisions, interactions, etc.

[Rebel13]

 

[Danie]

Hi I'm back again talking about sharing a cabin with in-laws. I know some people kind of know what's been going on so here's an update.
First of all BIL has agreed to sell his half. It was purchased as tenants-in-common 18 years ago with 2 separate mortgages. BIL is broke and needs a knee replacement      They are self insured and he will end up with a big medical bill          
Meanwhile, I inherited a boat-load of money.      So now I don't have to take crap from anyone, anymore, ever in my life.
Plus I've learned a lot about myself and family dynamics and hopefully someday I reap some benefit from all of my torment from them.

My H and I got pretty excited to finally be released from this mess. BIL and H have been talking on the phone about it and we decided not to get an appraisal and instead I talked to a realtor in the area that gave us a pretty good market value. BIL can't wait to get his mitts on the money and I am lovin' taking my sweet time.

So here's the catch I am now dealing with. BIL said to my H on the phone: "I'm still going to go there".  Huh? Say what?

The reason were splitting up is because we don't want to see him. I guess I should say, I don't. Of course my overly passive husband didn't even respond and said he was welcome to use "our" cabin. I'm so glad my therapist pointed out that this is an issue between H and I and now I see it wholeheartedly. Friends of mine say "he's his brother". They are implying I am supposed to put up with him and let him run over me some more. I have asked for some boundaries and just get push back. If these 2 want to hang out I'm out of it. My H isn't respecting my feelings at all and I am really sick of him and the whole thing. Wasting my life. I'm not going to back down I just want BIL to agree not to ever be there when I am and he needs to ask to be on our property. I don't think that's unreasonable. I've also said no money until he agrees and gets all his shit out - looking at April 1.

[Rebel13]

Sounds like it's been quite the ordeal. I'm glad you've gotten some good news and are a few steps closer to a resolution.

[Call Me Cordelia]

The entitlement boggles the mind for people who would never have that kind of nerve. But given everything that's happened leading up to this point... I can't say I'm surprised.

I agree with your therapist your problem is with your husband.

[bloomie]

Danie - interesting update. It is always a suprise how things change with family members like your bil, once again it seems, need to be financially rescued. You are gracious indeed to offer to fund the purchase of your bil's half of the cabin.

I'm not going to back down I just want BIL to agree not to ever be there when I am and he needs to ask to be on our property. I don't think that's unreasonable. I've also said no money until he agrees and gets all his shit out - looking at April 1.

Given your H's lack of respecting your wishes and feelings in all of this and inability to clearly hold the boundaries you have agreed upon for years with this cabin, while happily using your inheritance to continue to enjoy this cabin... who is going to negotiate and enforce these agreements?

Do you have a plan and agreement with your H for how this is going to happen and work?

[square]

I'm thinking you need to change the locks to an electronic one that you can generate temporary codes to when you want.

And then you, and not H, have the login to that account and generate the codes.

Your BIL is going to go whenever he wants, agreement or no agreement, and your H is going to let him.

In fact, you are going to have to generate new key codes for yourselves as soon as you leave each visit, because your H will just give it to BIL.

And prepare yourself to be told that BIL is there and needs a key code because whatever your H gave him isn't working. What will you do then?

[Danie]

Will this ever end?! I need, so badly, to have this behind me and to work on healing from it. The years I've spent feeling unhappy could've been spent doing something more enjoyable. I am working on that ..... the thoughts and putting the negative thoughts and feeling into perspective. My therapist is helping. I don't have anyone behind me and I have the right therapist for this. He's really making great suggestions and pointing out what's realistic here. I admit, I struggled to stand up for myself.

Here's an update:

1. Told H I was going to file for divorce if we don't get out of this.
2. H told BIL to pick one option - he buys it, we buy it or we sell whole thing. BIL chose sell to us.
3. H & I calculated price for BIL's half by talking to a realtor and an appraiser. We settled on $70,000.00 which is midway between Market Value and what BIL put into it. BIL is getting $20,000.00 extra because H said "I love my brother". It's really only worth $50,000.00.
4. I'm asking H to tell BIL he will get the check when his stuff (a lot) is out. BIL said to H, "I'm still going to go there" and "I can help you build onto the deck". H isn't holding firm boundaries.
5. BIL is now getting his own attorney to have us sign a "First right of refusal" and "something that says we will give it to him in our will when we die or possibly sooner". BIL got mad at me when I tried to explain how we came up with the price. I want the same formula when we sell it back. BIL is determined to get it back in the future. In his mind, it is still his and he is going to be meddling. This made me furious and I changed my mind and said I didn't want to buy it, to just leave it as is.
6. Changed my mind back to buying it from BIL in order to get him off the deed. Currently all 4 of us are on it.
7. Not going to sign anything about willing it and going to read any fine print about first right of refusal. Also going to create my own document about him on the property. If this all goes to hell, divorce is a real possibility.

[Rebel13]

Wow, this sounds like a lot, Danie. I didn't read back through the thread so I don't remember your reasons for hanging on to this property, although I know you had them. But for me, it would be a huge relief to let go of worrying about this property if a way could be found to do that.

[Danie]

Rebel, it's so much to read through. I think I would have to get divorced to be completely rid of it. For now, we are paying BIL $70,000. to get him off the deed, and hopefully that is enough for me feel rid of him. My H "loves his brother". Well, ok, I'm not going to be in the middle anymore and I will do what I have to do.

[bloomie]

Danie - this has been such a disappointment and long journey for you. I hope that buying out your bil will be a clear line in the sand and some peace to you. As you reclaim the space you love you will no longer have to cart your personal things back and forth or try to communicate with people who have disrespected and taken advantage of you and your H.

[Danie]

Thanks Bloomie. Yes this has gone on for far too long. In my mind I want to feel separate from BIL and his sneaky ways yet people say to me, "he's your husband's brother". I suppose they mean he is always going to be in your life. In trying to get rid of this joint ownership situation he is now getting his attorney and setting up a ROFR which means he get first dibs at it when we sell it. He keeps asking us to put it in our will for him and his kids! We haven't done a will and how shocking that someone would ask that after they've treated you so poorly.
I'm so worried about the ROFR and what he is going to try to get us to sign - I know I don't have to sign anything! I suspect he is going to write in something that gets him extra $ or gets him the property sooner.  My goal is to be disconnected as possible from him as I can.

[bloomie]

Thanks Bloomie. Yes this has gone on for far too long. In my mind I want to feel separate from BIL and his sneaky ways yet people say to me, "he's your husband's brother".

Pardon my snark, but I would tempted to respond with "And, given this is my husband's brother, I would think that would mean we be treated with love and concern. Fairness and consideration. But we have not been." 

Distancing ourselves from financial ties with people who have shown you they are unable or unwilling to live within healthy, responsible, respectful boundaries is what mature grown ups do. This is not a healthy or safe situation for you or your marriage no matter who the stress and drama is coming from.

I suppose they mean he is always going to be in your life. In trying to get rid of this joint ownership situation he is now getting his attorney and setting up a ROFR which means he get first dibs at it when we sell it. He keeps asking us to put it in our will for him and his kids! We haven't done a will and how shocking that someone would ask that after they've treated you so poorly.

This is mind-blowing to me! This sense of entitlement... is that true overall within your in law family, or specific to this cabin? Has there been anything said that would lead this bil to believe this kind of request is welcomed or appropriate?

I'm so worried about the ROFR and what he is going to try to get us to sign - I know I don't have to sign anything! I suspect he is going to write in something that gets him extra $ or gets him the property sooner.  My goal is to be disconnected as possible from him as I can.

I think I am confused a bit... are you and your H considering agreeing to giving him anything beside payment for his half? Are you worried you will be manipulated into doing something that you do not want to?