About the stay at my mum's

[walking on broken glass]

Hello everyone!
I am currently visiting at my mum's with my partner. A bit of background: I live abroad and I have a uBPDsis who lives in another continent. My dad passed away recently and my mum has been having various health problems. I was hesitating whether we should come to my mum's for the festive break but in the end decided to visit just before, so that we spend holidays at home, as we like it, and avoid meeting sis, who will be here after the 26th. I haven't spoken to sis since my dad's funeral: the days surrounding my dad's death were even more horrific because of sis' behaviour, and while I was on very low contact with her before, her awfulness made me decide to go no contact. She hasn't tried to contact me either so this is where we are now.

My visit has generated lots of thoughts and worries (as it happens). First of all, my relationship with my mum, though formally appearing good, has never been comfortable. My mum is not PD, she is more of the 'martyr' type of person, self-sacrificial, craving to be needed, and unable to ask for help herself. She and sis are very co-dependent; my mum is a full enabler. She is different with me, however, and this difference in treatment has become much more pronounced now that my dad is no longer alive. He was the extrovert, making conversation and jokes, and he was very warm and expressive (even though he did have narcissistic traits). He loved my partner and made a fuss whenever we came to visit. To a great extent, my mum was hiding behind him and relied on him for socialization. I feel sorry for her because I think she is still finding her steps and figuring it all out after my dad's death, but at the same time it is so weird for me being home without my dad, and – I feel guilty to admit – my mum's behaviour makes this feeling more intense. She behaves as if she were our butler or something, just asking whether we need this or that; everything is practical and there is no emotion involved. When I first came in through the door, I stepped forward to hug her (with a mask on: we are wearing masks and being careful in general because she is recovering from surgery); she just stood back so I didn't. She shows no signs that she is happy we are here; in fact, I get the feeling that she just tolerates us or that we are somehow intruding. I know she does not like feeling like she needs help or other people: she cannot make friendships easy, she does not like going out for coffee or food or socialize in general. The people she knows she's met them in charity groups where she used to work and she does not socialize with them outside this context. She has to be the 'giver'. Before we arrived, her sister stayed with her for a couple of nights to make sure she is ok. My mum said to me "I have my nurse" and my aunt said "I am not really doing anything, I am here for company". My mum doesn't understand "company". I have often thought that she might be neurodiverse because of this complete lack of desire to be in the company of other people in a relaxed environment, to have intimate friends with whom she engages and opens up.

Logically, I know that my mum has always been like this and it's not personal. But I also know that if my sis was here, she would behave differently towards her. My sis needs her and she can understand need. Me, I am an alien, with my partner, my friends, with whom I am in frequent contact, and my private life, the details of which I don't share with her. When my dad was at the hospital and sis and I had both come back (at different times), again my mum was like that with me: didn't hug me when I arrived, was standoffish and awkward, almost cold. When sis arrived, she immediately hugged her and was all over her.Intellectually, I get it: I know that I am a grown up and I don't want to be treated like a child, and I know that the dissonance in my mum's behaviour towards me and my sis shows that I am the healthy individual. But at the same time, it is hard for me not to feel sad about the big gap. It's been there for years, yes, but my dad's presence obscured all that and balanced it out. With my dad absent, my mum's co-depedence with sis has grown even more, while our relationship has become more strained. It is like she reserves all her affection and care for my sis, and I am a second class citizen. I am also the recipient of annoyance and anger - when she allows herself to display them - whereas with sis she is all sweetness. This line from Buffy, The vampire Slayer (is anyone a fan?) keeps coming back to me, when Buffy, who has all the responsibility, resents the fact that her little sister gets to be 'the baby' and is spoiled and mollycoddled: 'She gets to be a kid. Sometimes I would like to just curl up in Mom's lap and not worry about the fate of the world. I'd like to be the one who's protected, who's waited on'. Well, I am no slayer but I've felt like I have been fighting with the forces of darkness for a long time now!

One other thing that has been strange is my sister's lack of contact with my mum: she usually talks with her every day, all morning, and the past few days I have heard her talk to her only once. I overheard that she is on a business trip so perhaps this is the reason. But it is very unusual. I wonder if it's because we are here and she wants to avoid us. If that's the case, I am overjoyed! My birthday is in two days so I wonder how she will play it. I was also unsure what the protocol will be when I am back home and sis is here with mum. I want to talk to my mum to check how she is doing but in the past, whenever I called, sis would show up and monopolize the conversation. I wonder how she will behave this time.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi WOBG,

What I see in your writing here, is that you and your mom are two very different people, with different temperaments and personalities and capacities / social skills. You have written a really thought provoking and self-aware passage here, about how you feel and your mom's behaviors. And from what you've described, it doesn't sound like your mom operates at that level of awareness or that she does what you do - reflect on what is going on and what people are feeling inside.

You think ahead to how you'll keep relationship needs in balance at various times like during your own birthday and while your mom recovers at home. But not everyone thinks like this. I think that what you wrote about how your dad's presence helped to smooth the gap that exists between you and your mom and your sister, is a hard realization that some of us hit on at some point when we live with emotionally immature parents. From what you wrote, I get the sense that your mom keeps her focus on the surface, where she is comfortable. I find these dynamics with emotionally immature parents fascinating - when they have more than one child, they often bond to the child who lets them be on the surface of things. The child who develops beyond their grasp confuses them, to be blunt. I've seen it in a few different families now, and the emotionally immature parent never seems to have any awareness that they have bonded to the child who lets them be more superficial. They don't seem to know what their more mature, developed kids need from them.

As we age and we go into middle adulthood, I do think that a lot of us can look at who our parents were / are, and see that oh, they had kids, but they may have not had the skills to do anything other than look at our surface needs. They made sure their kids were fed etc but the awareness or depth wasn't there. And I think we have these realizations in later adulthood because that is when we can accept our parents as people who had their own developmental tasks that they didn't go through (for whatever reason). They didn't develop in the ways that we did. They didn't learn how to do things like develop stronger friendships with people outside the family. I've known several older people, who are aging now and they just never learned how to make friends. Being the adult child of someone like that can be sad, cause we can see that their life is what it is.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

Hi trees,
You are so spot on. My mum is all about the surface and this is one of the reasons she feels safer and more comfortable with my sister. By the way, sis called her on Skype just as we were about to go out. They were talking and we were at the door and I said to my mum 'bye, we are going out' without acknowledging my sister. My mum did not even turn her head and she said in a very cold and aggressive voice 'have fun'. The anger was palatable! I am destroying her idea of a happy family by refusing to behave as she would want me to, and she resents that.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Hi, WOBG.  The whole situation sounds very awkward and hurtful.  I'm glad you have your partner there with you.

I believe emotionally immature family members often feel threatened around others who have grown up and are no longer abiding by the old rules and games, despite your friendliness to her.  She's never been where you are (emotionally mature) and it probably does seem alien.  At the same time she may sense that you probably see through her.  Sometimes parent can feel like they're scared little kids when they lose the upper hand.  She probably never saw emotional maturity in her own parents growing up, either.  It's such a shame.

You just lost your dad recently.  And by losing him you also lost your means of connection with your mom.  That's a lot to grieve.  I'm so sorry it's turned out this way for you. 

[walking on broken glass]

Τhank you, looking 2b free.
I have vowed never to come back here on my own, unless it is truly an emergency.

Unfortunately sis was not calling because she was on a business trip and not because we are here. She reverted to her usual schedule today. She basically talks to my mum from the moment she gets home till she goes to bed – for our time zone, this means from mid morning until late afternoon. When she is off work, they start talking from very early in the morning, as soon as my mum wakes up. It is truly maddening. My mum has been living in the living room because she feels more comfortable there but this means that the living room is off limits during the calls. We either go out or stay in the bedroom. It is so sad that she prefers to engage with my sister for hours online than interact with the people who live in the same flat. It feels like we are here only to do chores for her. Almost as if we were hired help or lodgers.

[Call Me Cordelia]

That's really sad. Really, really sad. For both your mom and sister. It also sounds terribly dull. What on earth do they find to talk about all day long anyway? They're missing out on so much life potential, but that's their choice. I'm glad you at least are opting out of the marathon Skype sessions and doing your own thing with your partner. Although if you're down to lodger status, would you in fact prefer to stay at a hotel? I'm seeing very little interest in you, no warmth, a lot of resentment and barely veiled anger aimed at you. It makes me wonder why you are even there, and why you felt so obligated to go. Is there any plus side to this trip for you or your mom?

TBH, it takes me back to visits with my folks before NC. The visit would be spent passive-aggressively disparaging me, trying to sabotage our efforts at bettering our lives (business, diet, you name it) or else watching tv and ignoring us. I concluded we all had better ways to spend a Saturday.

I relate to your feeling above of just wanting so much to be mothered. Unfortunately, I would have to majorly stunt myself in order to receive anything resembling that from the person who is my natural mother. My mother is like yours... needs to be needed but majorly threatened by me stepping out into what is unfamiliar territory to her. Her defense is to pile the shame on.

Happy early birthday! I hope you manage to have a good one. While there's a lot of grief on this trip, I hope you are also able to recognize yourself for the tremendous growth and the life you have built. Sometimes it shows stronger in relief against the background of the dysfunction we came from. Many happy years to you.

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you so much Call me Cordelia. I am so sad and angry at the same time.

Although if you're down to lodger status, would you in fact prefer to stay at a hotel? I'm seeing very little interest in you, no warmth, a lot of resentment and barely veiled anger aimed at you. It makes me wonder why you are even there, and why you felt so obligated to go. Is there any plus side to this trip for you or your mom?

I have been asking myself exactly that. I came because my mum is in a very bad shape and I wanted to be here for her and help her. But it looks like this was more my need than hers! I am so glad we didn't decide to come here for Christmas. So so glad.

I don't know how to handle things in the future. Would there be any point in having a discussion with her about this? Or should I just limit my visits?
Also, I have been calling her every night ever since my dad died, just to check on her. But when my sister is there, should I keep to that schedule? I am thinking not.

[Rebel13]

It is so sad that she prefers to engage with my sister for hours online than interact with the people who live in the same flat. It feels like we are here only to do chores for her. Almost as if we were hired help or lodgers.

This seems like important information.

I don't know how to handle things in the future. Would there be any point in having a discussion with her about this? Or should I just limit my visits?

What would you LIKE to do? What would feel best TO YOU? Your mom seems to have expressed a preference for visiting daily over Skype with your sister to seeing you in person after you have gone to the trouble to make the trip. How does that sit with your feelings of obligation/guilt that prompted you to visit? What do you think would happen if you tried to discuss it? What do you think would happen if you limited visits/contact for a while?

[walking on broken glass]

Thanks Rebel
I thought of these questions. I now realise how important it was that I made the decision not to come here for the holidays just because I thought I had to. I didn't have to and it would have been a disaster. I will remember this from now on and won't hesitate again to follow my own plans.

I thought of the kind of conversation I could have with my mum and it seems completely futile. She has had the routine of talking to sis every day all morning for the past few years. Admittedly it has gotten worse but it is not new. And it's her decision to make. If she wants to spend her time like this, it's her problem. It only becomes my problem when I am here, so I can either come for very short visits and decide to put up with it or stay at an airBnB. Given that I am not planning to come again any time soon, this is a decision I can make later, when the time comes. But under no circumstances am I coming here on my own, only to feel trapped in my bedroom and listen to them chat on Skype.

Before her health problems started, I had suggested to my mum to come visit me where I live now. She had said that she was planning to visit my sister (even though this is a much longer and complicated trip). I now see that there is no way she will come visit, even when she gets better, because she won't be able to talk to my sister as much as she wants from my place. It is sad but again that's her decision.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Walking,

I've realized there are layers of grief when we have an emotionally immature parent like this. Most of the EI's I've known, have a routine. They need their routine, it is what helps them. I've never, to my memory, known them to be able to talk about their routine, and if you try to talk to her about her routine (i.e. talking to your sister for long hours every day), she'll just get defensive. This is her way of adjusting to life without your dad. And it is sad that she's not really doing it in a way where she is showing up for you and your sister.

Also the EI's in my FOO, don't do well with death and loss. That's part of never growing up emotionally and psychologically. We (the ones who did grow up and mature) kinda end up parenting these people to some extent because as they age, they organize the people in their life, to take care of them in some way. That's how I've seen it play out and that is the sense I get from your writing.

What seems to be lost in the shuffle here (with your mom focused on your sister), is that you lost your dad, and your mom isn't there for you, and that's hard. She's hiding out in those long Skype calls with your sister. I spent years taking care of people, who didn't want to take care of me. You get to a place in your life where you realize it's not your fault at all. This is who they were. This is who she was before she became a parent. I think we each find our way to a new relationship with our immature parent and it is visits like this that give us a lot of info about where things are at and the places we can't really go with this parent, emotionally.

It is hard when our family members are so lacking in skills because the relationship we want to have with them, is out of reach. That's how I see these things. Unfortunately, families with immature parents don't really function very well. That's what I've learned after years of working to understand what happened in my FOO system. A lot of the time, we're just trying to keep the immature parent in a good mood. That's not really the focus that adult children should have but it is our focus when our parent is immature isn't it?

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

Hi trees,
That's all very well put and very perceptive. In my case it is the whole extended family that is immature. They never learned how to make sense of their feelings and express them properly. It is what it is but it makes it so much harder for me because I feel I am the odd one out. Even cousins at my age have followed the family pattern. So there really isn't anyone in the family who can understand and share my perspective. That's why I really appreciate my friends and of course this place 😊

It was my birthday today. We decided to spend most of the day out while my mum would be talking to sis on Skype. As I was about to go out the door, my mum was on Skype with sis and I heard them whisper, which is ridiculous because I was a few metres away and I could clearly see and hear what was going on. Then my mum said 'can you come? Your sister wants to say happy birthday'. So I went over there and we spoke for a minute. It was really awkward and fake, but it was done and I am glad it is over. Afterwards she sent me a picture of some oysters she had in the place she was visiting 🙄 Unfortunately I will have to talk to her again during the holidays when she will be with my mum, because when I call to speak to my mum she always makes sure to grab the phone or the tablet and monopolise the conversation. Even when I call my mum on her mobile she answers it! It is maddening. After New Year's I hope I won't have to see her or talk to her again for a very long time.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Walking,

Happy belated birthday! I'm glad you went out and didn't stay home all day with people who don't understand you.

Years ago, I dated someone who was immature, and he had siblings. One sibling was kinda more like me, and so we built a little friendship, because we could see what was going on with the more immature people in his family. But it is really just luck of the draw, in terms of relatives and their immaturity. Most of the time, we're the only one.

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Yes, well wishes for your birthday, WOBG!  Your mom and sister sound horribly enmeshed, fused.  Yuck!  I'm glad you escaped that and so sorry you didn't get parents who could/ can be there for you.  Very maddening and hurtful.  It sounds like your sister never individuated.  If that's true, it's kind of horrifying.  That's a pretty major developmental stage to miss!

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you for the wishes!

A funny thing happened yesterday. My uncle came to visit (he comes every day these days to check on my mum) and brought some things for us. My mum said to me go on, take the stuff off his hands, but my uncle said it's ok, I can carry them to the kitchen. So he went ahead into the kitchen and I went behind him. My mum who was walking behind me, when my uncle moved to the kitchen, aggressively flicked me with the back of her hand and started gesticulating in annoyance. I was stunned and just looked at her in amazement. She then whispered to me 'I didn't want him to go into the kitchen'. For the life of me, I have no idea why. I asked her after my uncle left what the problem was and she said 'I just had my lunch laid out on the table and it was embarrassing'. I suspect that it might have been because she was on a video call with my sister, which she hadn't paused, but then again my uncle knows how often they talk. In fact she stayed in the kitchen talking to my sister throughout his visit and I sat with him.

At any rate, the reason was not important. I think she has pent up anger against me which she lets slip now and then, with little episodes like that. It is sad.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Walking,

And that is why it is a good idea for us to grow up as adults...a more mature person woulda communicated herself clearly to you, but she didn't.

These older folks who never grew up emotionally...they are terrible at communicating clearly and directly. Instead it's stuff like that. She didn't want him in her kitchen at that time, but didn't know how to say that.

I've been reflecting on how impossible it was to deal with my MIL, because she could never say what she wanted or needed or felt. That's what happens when they don't grow up emotionally. They act like everything is someone else's problem or someone else's fault. Ugh. Because they never grew up, they are never happy with us.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

Yeah, exactly!
My mum is very bad at asking for things too. Yesterday morning I asked her if she needed anything from the supermarket. She said are you going? I said, well, I don't need anything but I can go for you, if you tell me what you want. She said no, I don't want anything for today, we can get some milk tomorrow. So, I go out for a walk and when I was out I remembered something I wanted from the shops, so I got it. My mum saw me put it in the fridge and she said 'I didn't know you were going to the shops, you could have got some milk.' She had just said she didn't need anything! But I had to read between the lines and realise she did actually want milk.

This morning she said she needed some painkillers but the store nearby didn't have any. I said I can go to a pharmacy and get them for you? Her response was I don't need them urgently, only if you pass by a pharmacy. I now know this means get them anyway...
What a confusing way to live.

[walking on broken glass]

My mum's biopsy came out and she has cancer. I am so sad and scared of what will happen next. Not just in terms of my mum's health but also how my sister will behave and how we will navigate this. So soon after my dad's death. We can't catch a break.

[walking on broken glass]

Also: a couple of friends asked me if I am going to extend my stay because of the diagnosis. I feel guilty but I don't want to. My sister will be here in a week and we have arranged things to do back home (plus we would need to find another cat sitter).

[Rebel13]

Hi walking -- it is a LOT to take in right now. I'm really sorry for what you're struggling with.

Regarding your earlier discussions about 'do you need anything?' 'oh no (but...)' I just saw a video on Youtube which called that "Dry Begging" in the context of behavior of people with PDs.

I hope you can take some time to cope with this whole situation and your mom's diagnosis before making any big decisions. I had cancer last year and it's not always an immediate emergency. So give yourself some time to think things through.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Oh, I'm so sorry this has happened.  SO much to deal with.  I hope you can keep taking very good care of yourself, and that you find clarity about the timing of your leaving and any other changes you may contemplate.  I'm assuming your mom will know pretty soon what the next steps are and when.  What difficult timing!  I feel for all of you ...  <3 <3 <3