About the stay at my mum's

[walking on broken glass]

If my experience is anything to go by, this will pass with time. Older, more fond memories will keep surfacing and the painful ones about death will take their proper place among them.

That's really comforting. Thanks Rebel

[walking on broken glass]

So I called my mum to see if she got her test results. I hear my sister's voice in the background and I am thinking 'is she on the phone with my mum already? what on earth, she should be at work at this time'. Then I gradually realize that my sister is still there with my mum! She was supposed to leave on the 6th! In fact, I did call my mum and talked to her on the 6th and of course she said nothing about my sister extending her stay. My stomach is turning. I didn't ask anything, I have no idea how long she will stay for. But it is very interesting that all these years she was pretending she cannot take time off work to stay longer because the policies where she works are strict, and suddenly she can.

I know I shouldn't be surprised or upset even: it is probably good for my mum that my sister is there. But my mum's and sister's behaviour once more reinforce the impression that they are a unit and I am an outsider. I could not even get my mum's results because my sister had them, and my mum was asking my sister about them to then convey the information. She is seeing the doctor tonight, so I told her I will call her then to find out the updates. I couldn't bear my sister's bossiness and her playing the doctor for one minute longer (she is not a doctor, but always wanted to be one and has done some medical studies).

The reason for my anger, I guess, is that I wanted to scream 'this is not normal'. But of course I've known that for a long time and should not come as a surprise.

[Call Me Cordelia]

You're exceedingly generous to give your mother and her health so much attention after the way you've been treated. I hope you are giving your own health and well being even more attention!

[walking on broken glass]

Thanks, Cordelia
It's good to be reminded that I am not a monster or ungrateful daughter.
I am trying to see all this in a positive light: I can let my sister take the leading role since she is so keen anyway and I can withdraw a bit. Of course this will reinforce the narrative that I don't care but I can't escape that anyway. I'd like to know how long my sister will be there for but I will have to ask directly, otherwise they information will not be offered freely to me.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Walking,

Yes, that. With time you will see that if your sister is willing to be this bonded to your mom, it means you'll be able to withdraw, and have time to reflect on what you want to do with your relationship with your mom given this unhealthy bond the two of them have going.

They may not realize this at all, but I would guess that this is how the two of them are coping with the loss of your dad, which destabilized your family system. And if they are not very matured people, psychologically, then their behavior makes a lot of sense. And it is also very very sad, because there you are, needing your own support and warmth as a loving, expressive daughter who lost her dad, and your mom and sister are not able to offer that.

Sometimes in a family, there's a pair bond like this. It's not healthy, and the rest of us can see it so clearly, but for those two, it might be all they can do. I would hazard a guess that your mom doesn't really know what else to do, she isn't coming from a healthy place, and so she's leaning on your sister, and your sister is leaning on her. You know when you take two books and you lean them against each other like you've formed a tent shape with them, its very unstable because there's nothing supporting the structure but as long as you don't disturb the books they might stay upright by leaning on each other?

It's not normal. It is far from healthy, to treat one daughter like this. I get it. As a daughter who was left in the cold by both parents, and seeking that warmth and never got it from either of them, I get it. It sounds like your needs are just totally invisible to your mom right now. She can't see what is going on for you. And no one wants to experience that. This past holiday season, I realized how invisible I was to my dad, how he didn't think about me at all. And no one wants to realize this stuff.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

Thanks trees. Your tent analogy is so spot on.

I don't know whether I should ask my mum about my sister's stay and say something like 'it's good you have company' or just ignore the whole thing. It would be good to know when she goes but I don't want to bring her up. I am in two minds about it.

[Rebel13]

I don't think you can make a "mistake" wobg! Whether you ask about your sister's stay or not, you'll get more information. Even no response is information, if you see what I mean.     Whichever course you take, you will see how the actions and outcomes make you feel, and that will help you make the next decision, and the next one after that, in your own best interest.

[treesgrowslowly]

 

You could say "let me know when sis has to go back home, if you want a call with me that week".

What I learned in my messed up Foo is that if people don't want me to have clear info they won't give it. No matter what I ask.

What's good for us is to accept that we're 2 minds about it because we are taking care with our selves. Only simple people are never of 2 minds about things! I sometimes find relief if i tell myself that being of 2 minds is a good thing, if you can see it as the work of acknowledging that you have depth and therefore
You feel many things sometimes. Sometimes I'm of 2 minds when I'm giving myself time to move to the next level of detaching from the outcome. It's a process

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you rebel and trees.
Rebel, you are right that there is no wrong decision here. I guess I am more fragile than usual and more terrified that anything I will do will have adverse effects. I am being hyper vigilant.
Trees, I like the idea of seeing being of two minds as positive

In the end I didn't ask.

Unfortunately the news is bad regarding my mum's health. She has to do chemo first to shrink the tumours, then a surgery, then chemo again. It's going to be a long road and I will have to make lots of difficult decisions. I need to decide how involved I want to be, and feelings of guilt and obligation are coming to the surface.

[treesgrowslowly]

Oof. This is never easy when the PD parent has health issues. It is a common theme that we support one another with here on the boards.

I could be off base here, but here is what comes to mind for me, based on what you've shared and how it lines up with a lot of stuff I've had to sort out with my FOO members over the years.

What I've learned, is that back in childhood, this parent didn't know how to take good care of themselves, and so we followed unspoken rules, as kids, which were rules based on what our parents needed.

We learned how to take on worries or tasks that the parent couldn't navigate. We learned some way of helping ourselves through all the times our parents were not telling us "don't worry kiddo, I've got this under control, you don't need to worry about this". In the absence of a parent who does take care of their adult stuff, without involving us, we take on more worry than kids whose parents are adept at managing things.

In adulthood I've learned how valuable it is to look at the programming we got during childhood. That programming was the result of a parent who couldn't handle life very well. I wonder if this fits: On an unspoken level, you took in the message that you are somehow needed and obligated but also resented for being good at taking care of things. That message from a mother, really messes with our heads.

I say this because I've learned that this is how mother-daughter FOG often works. We feel guilty when a less than mature parent, isn't doing well, and in childhood we had unspoken family rules. The fact that no one would speak about the rules we had to follow in itself messed with us too. My guess is that for you, your dad may have played a role in helping your mom when she couldn't handle things. So that leaves a lot of questions as to what now? What is WOBG's role in all of this?

The feeling of "I will have to make lots of difficult decisions" that you wrote here, is so familiar to me as the child of narcissists. Because I learned that the narc will not be helping me make those difficult decisions. People with non-narc parents don't tend to feel like this, they don't tend to get worried about the same things we do.

The worry comes from all the years that you followed the unspoken rules about how to help your mom with things she couldn't figure out, and all the times that you made difficult decisions without her understanding what was going on for you. By adulthood, we kinda know viscerally that we don't have a parent who will be able to manage, and who will know the difference between leaning on us vs. asking for healthy support from us.

We know we need some boundaries around ourselves with this person, but since this person is mom, it is not easy. You want to be there for this person but in a way that doesn't cause you headaches every week, and you know from childhood and from recent experiences, that there are headaches when you get involved, and then guilt when you don't get involved. It's so hard to have these parents. I'm estranged from everyone because that was the only move left in my situation. My parents are on their own with their aging and health issues. But I do feel for those of you here in the forum who are in contact and trying to manage those boundaries.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you trees. I am thinking about what you wrote. I never really thought of my parents as PD —even though I could definitely see that they had traits —because they were quite good at dealing with adult stuff. Well, at least my dad was. My dad was in charge of household finances. He worked in a bank and that made it easier for him, I guess, but he also liked the control. He made sure to build up savings and looked after everything. My mum is just frugal but I don't think she had to manage anything herself, other than the everyday shopping. In that sense, I never had to worry about this aspect because it was covered. I am not sure about whether my mum has a good understanding of her finances now though. Luckily, my dad's careful planning means that she should be comfortable but health care quickly swallows up a lot of money. I am a bit worried about that and whether she realizes it.

Same goes for health care. In general they were able to look after themselves and I didn't have to do a lot, other than offer some advice perhaps.

So they weren't as bad in these respects. But they were both very controlling and emotionally immature. They did provide for me and they didn't lean on me disproportionately for adult problems and decisions. But taking care of the practical stuff is only one side, perhaps the minimum requirement, of being a parent. Then there's the psychological support and nurture and understanding, which they lacked. And of course they put pressure on me to comply with the rules of the family and punished me for being different. I learned from an early age not to share my anxieties and problems with them, and deal with things quietly, on my own. I knew that if I shared they would overstress, try to impose their views on me and control me, criticise me severely and make me doubt myself, as well as get offended if I didn't take on their advice.

I am digressing but just to give a picture of what they were like. I think my current difficulty arises from the fact that, before my mum offloaded on me, even though I didn't feel emotionally close to her and didn't regard her as a fully safe person to be around, I still felt a connection with her and thought she could still love me and respect me, even if she could not understand me. But the incident showed me that this was wishful thinking and that I was filling her silences with what I wanted to believe. I am still having trouble reconciling the horror of what she said with the person I thought she was. Sometimes before calling her I feel genuine care and concern for her, and then the horror of what happened comes rushing in and overwhelms me and fills me with dread. I feel like I am re-experiencing the realisation I had many years ago about my sister, that she is not a safe person for me and that she will never change. And it is almost a second betrayal, and deeper and more traumatic. So, when I imagine what I would normally offer to do for my mum, visit her when she has the chemo and stay with her for a few days and cheer her up (something I had done in the past when she had breast cancer and I was a student), I immediately recoil, thinking of the new situation and what she was like and would be like. And then I feel shame that I can't bring myself to genuinely care for her. But isn't that a healthy reaction, when someone treats you that badly?

This is what I mostly meant with difficult decisions: decide how much involved I will be and find inner peace with my decision. And then there's the question of the extended family, who are also very involved in the situation and will be asking questions, if I decide to withdraw.

Lots of thinking to do and there's no blueprint.

[Rebel13]

I guess I am more fragile than usual and more terrified that anything I will do will have adverse effects. I am being hyper vigilant.

Perfectly understandable given the circumstances! I can see/feel that in what you write and I am sending you good thoughts for calm and peace and feeling safe making the best decision FOR YOU.

It's going to be a long road and I will have to make lots of difficult decisions. I need to decide how involved I want to be, and feelings of guilt and obligation are coming to the surface.

I'm so sorry about this. No question, it's a very tough situation, for anyone, and then layer on the problems in your relationship and her recent callous behavior -- it's a lot.

Maybe one possible upside of not having a blueprint is a feeling of freedom? There are no rules, and if there are no rules, you can't break them! If there's no right thing to do, you can't do the wrong thing! Believe me, I know how hard it is to get into that headspace when you are feeling the pressure of concern about being a good person, and what people will think, say, do, if in their opinion you do something "wrong." But I think also there are a lot of do-overs. If you stay away, and then feel bad, you can try approaching, and see how that feels. And vice versa.

Keep the updates coming. I'm thinking of you and sending you best wishes.

[walking on broken glass]

Flying monkey time:

My cousin, with whom I speak perhaps once a year, if that, and just exchange info about our cats, messaged me today. She started by wishing my mum good luck and then went on to say that she spoke on the phone with my sister who was in absolute panic. I said nothing. She then said that her mum (my mum's sister) will go to stay with my mum on Tuesday because 'your mum needs support right now and she needs someone calm and composed to be with her' (wink wink). I wrote 'that's true'. Then she said 'so are you going on any trips? I am looking for inspiration'. As if that were a normal change of topic!

She wants to elicit gossip from me and stir the drama. She was probably expecting me to badmouth my sister, then she would go tell her what I said, and she is trying to guilt trip me because I am not there. My sister has probably told her that she is doing everything herself, while I don't care and go on holidays and trips all the time.

It's just so frustrating. I hate malicious people.

[Rebel13]

Here's a ChumpLady-ism for you:  "Trust that they suck."   

Hang in there. Take care of YOU.

[Sheppane]

Hi WOBG

I am just catching up on this now - I haven't been logging on much recently. Boy,I can relate so much! I am so sorry everything is so painful for you right now. Your story of the ties brought tears to my eyes. Is there any possibility you could ask for one, even at this stage? I can also really understand that feeling of needing to block out the picture of your dad and no I certainly don't think there is anything unhealthy about that. There is no rulebook for grief and sometimes our own intuition and wisdom steps in to guide us, and perhaps when you are ready you will look at the photo again.i would trust in your own ability to know you are doing the right thing, for you.
I can relate to being the outsider to an enmeshed duo. It can be a very lonely place to be. The tent analogy is a great one and of course neither your Mom or sister are probably operating from a place of emotional maturity, from what I have read. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh. What I mean is where is the love and compassion and understanding for WOBG? The sense that we must reach out to her to see how she is coping? Instead they have pulled rank and you are on the outside. In my experience and a similar full on rage attack from my own Mom it is utterly confusing to know where to stand in these relationships and situations. I used to always have so many questions. What should I say ? If I say this, then how will that go? If I don't, it will be held against me etc etc etc. what I eventually realized was that the confusion was there to tell me - that this is not normal or healthy. In healthy relationships we don't have to do all this second guessing. We go in and out , we visit, we chat. We sometimes argue or misunderstanding each other, and it is no big deal. The hypervigilance you describe is exhausting. I have had to come to a healthy acceptance that this is the way it is in my FOO. As someone said here once, you can't get bread in a hardware store. I think for a while I kept trying trying to be seen, to be held in the same way as my siblings are. And the confusing thing was sometimes I was. It wasn't bad 100% of the time. But then I realized that they were also making a choice about me. I learned not to expect consistency, but also recognized at times, especially when vulnerable, the child in me would still crave to be loved in a healthy way. In my case I don't think it is that my FOO necessarily don't love me, but the expression of it is tortured and difficult and confusing. I can only imagine how painful that would feel after someone dies. You mentioned also that you were closer to your father...is it possible your Mom and sis have some resentment about this also? I am so sorry you are feeling like the outsider. Just know they are operating out of their own dysfunction, and we hear understand how you feel. As regards deciding how involved you want to be now with your mom's ill health ...as someone else alluded to, perhaps that's not something that needs to be decided right now. You are allowed to change your mind! It is another sticky point in dysfunctional families that we all have to behave/ play in a certain way. Because we feel they will expect this or that, or if I said I was going to go and now I don't want to what will I say, how will they interpret that etc. We are entitled to take things at our own pace, without feeling under pressure to have a plan, a decision, and we can change our mind at a moments notice. Stay strong WOBG. Oh and tell those flying monkeys to go annoy someone else!!

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you so much, Sheppane. Such a thoughtful and kind answer

[walking on broken glass]

I didn't take the bait last time and my cousin messaged me again. Twice in the same week whereas we spoke once a year before! She sent a video of her mum's cat saying the cat missed her mum (her mum is currently with my mum). I think I might have to block her if she keeps going like this. I can't believe I blocked my sister and another one popped up! What is this?!

[treesgrowslowly]

I would say that is a bit of hoovering.

When someone in the foggy Foo puts boundaries up, there are often some random relatives, like your cousin, who try a  hoover.

In my Foo system it was also a cousin and aunt who wanted me back in. It's like a cat wanting a mouse to play with. If you set a boundary, they can't manipulate you unless you take the bait.

It's not mature that is sure. Instead of a real conversation with you about your valid concerns and your needs and recent experiences of your moms behavior towards you, she sends a cat video. Yep, very much on brand with how inept and immature my relatives are too.

Trees

[Sheppane]

Crazy. So umm is the message that you should be the one staying with your mum so her mum doesn't have to so her cat doesn't miss her???! Just crazy but straight out of the playbook.

[walking on broken glass]

Haha yes, I know, it's insane!

I have been calling my mum twice a week or so, and even these short calls put a huge strain on me. I resent the fakeness, how I basicallly ask her 'how are you doing?', she gives me a summary of her symptoms for the day, and then she asks me 'how are you doing?', I reply 'fine', with no elaborating further because I don't want to, and then we hang up. Yesterday, she mentioned my sister because she had 'medical opinions' on some tests my mom had taken. And I have to nod and go 'uh-huh' while swearing on the inside.

I don't know if diluting the calls even more will help me or not. Every time I call I am reminded of the fact that I am not treated equally, that I am the outsider and that this whole thing - me still being in touch with someone who thinks the worst of me - is weird.