Breaking point

[ploughthrough2021]

My sister (who was in an abusive marriage with an alcoholic) told me that it will end when I decide that I have had enough (and she will have no choice).  The only thing that has to be done is to negotiate the split and custody.  That was a really good advice that I hold dearly.

[escapingman]

I think she has lost it completely, the frequency of the cycles, the level of abuse, the complete victimization and the absolute lack of understanding what she is doing. Right now she is "normal", she has bought some wood for a project in the garden, it is a small project that will require a builder to help for a couple of hours, she has behaved like we are building a new house. No joke, but this has been going on for 2 months and now she finally bought the wood and arranged for a builder. At the moment this builder is the best builder in the world, so is every worker she employs, they are the best. But I know that when the job is finished, she will find a problem with it, she will either call him back to correct it or more likely blame me for it and then slag this builder off for the rest of the days. This morning she lost it completely with SG, SG was struggling with some tablets as scared of swallowing, not acceptable and the more SG struggled to more she shouted at SG. Yes I was frustrated too, but more like "just take the bl**dy tablets so your mum shuts up". In the middle of this SG knocked a glass of juice all over the table, floor and chair. An enormous tantrum followed and how dare SG spill juice on her expensive chair. Then when I try to calm the situation and say "it's just a chair, please don't shout at SG" I got shouted at for siding with SG and how dare I not back her up. Some more shouting before she eventually took them to school, but now she is happy as ever as she has bought some wood.

Soon it's lunch, I will eat fish, I will most likely get complains about how much it stinks. That I chew the cracker bread to loudly. Then she will do her puzzle book whilst eating, I am supposed to just sit there and watch her being ready for any conversation she might start. If I look disinterested she moans, if I leave the table before she is finished she moans. She literally sits having her lunch, doing her puzzle book for 1-1.5 hours and I am supposed to sit and watch her. I don't, I won't and it makes me very stressed as I know she will moan as soon as I leave the table and go back to work. She keeps asking me if I have meetings, what I have on work wise, not because she is interested but so she can keep a tab on me and if I say I am not that busy with work she would come up with a job I need to complete for her. I always need to pretend to be busy, because since she is busy all the time it would not be fair if I wasn't busy.

Sorry for ranting on but I need to write this crap down for my own sake. 

[1footouttadefog]

I would address the child's rudeness with the child.

Perhaps tell them it's fine to have a suggestion about where and what to eat after the activity, but that they need to present it politely without rudeness.  If not there will not be any activities until they can be trusted to behave toward you in public.

Then let them know it hurts your feelings to be treated more rudely than a stranger, and you wonder why you are being treated that way. 

Letting my kids know my feelings were hurt in such ways helped them see it was not just a silly game.

It has to be soul crushing to see your wife doing this to this extent.  I am sorry.

Manipulation of children this way is a super lowlife pd action. 

I have a friend who has twins as her youngest two and her narc phychopath ex picked one of the twins as a favorite from birth and played such games.  The side effects still exist even now.  This child demands the mothers attention more than the other three all put together. 

We have pondered whether the N shaped the child this much in such a short time or if he identified her as being a fellow N from birth.  Either way over time things improve with all her kids as they grow up and interact with other kids, school, etc.

[escapingman]

We got the delivery of the wood, she immediately inspects it all into the finest detail and...... surprise surprise it's not good enough, so now she is on talks with the company to have it replaced. It just never ends, nothing is ever good enough and there is always more drama. Yesterday she came back home from the gym, in a state, furious, she had had a running with the women leading the class. Apparently she was told off for not following the routine, I have hard to believe this and I am so used to her taking offence for the smallest thing. Apparently she ended up in a row in front of all other people in the class and ended up going to the reception asking for the manager and made a complaint. Now she is going to switch to another gym, unless they apologize of course. Before I was Out of the FOG I would have believed her, maybe even got down to the gym myself and ask what the heck was going on. But I have learnt to stay out of her drama, she is a grown up and she can deal with that. SG then had a complete meltdown about some school work, she can not control her anger when something goes completely wrong, this is very hard as I must both reprimand her for her behavior (she was very mean to her sister) and try to calm her down and at the same time manage with my wife shouting in the background as no one is allowed to have tantrums but her.

I am continuing trying to detaching me from the drama, and focusing on being there for the kids. Today is another day and let's see what drama she can come up with.

[escapingman]

I should have seen that one coming, let my guard down a bit and there bang it comes. Working from home, went in to the kitchen and decided to wash up. She comes in to me after I finished and wants a detailed explanation of why I washed up just before she got downstairs from her shower. I didn't have a good answer as I just did it, I am sure most of us just get on with jobs without any real thought for why. But no, I needed to explain why as she thought I washed it up because she hadn't and therefor I did it because I was annoyed with her and I was trying to teach her a lesson. F*ck me, all I did was wash up dirty dishes. Ended up with her shouting at me slamming the door telling me off for something I have planned next week. I need to stop fooling myself that I can handle her because I can't.

[SonofThunder]

I should have seen that one coming, let my guard down a bit and there bang it comes. Working from home, went in to the kitchen and decided to wash up. She comes in to me after I finished and wants a detailed explanation of why I washed up just before she got downstairs from her shower. I didn't have a good answer as I just did it, I am sure most of us just get on with jobs without any real thought for why. But no, I needed to explain why as she thought I washed it up because she hadn't and therefor I did it because I was annoyed with her and I was trying to teach her a lesson. F*ck me, all I did was wash up dirty dishes. Ended up with her shouting at me slamming the door telling me off for something I have planned next week. I need to stop fooling myself that I can handle her because I can't.

Hello Escapingman,

I have been following this thread since it began, but not commenting.  I am very sorry you are experiencing the PD drama from your wife.  Your experiences remind me of my own prior to learning the very difficult tools in the toolbox of MC, noJADE, 51% rule and 50% rule.   In my opinion, those 4 tools, allow you to begin to mentally distance/detach yourself from her drama.  I also believe that your children are greatly affected by both parents being in the PD cycle drama.   What I mean by that comment is that when your PDw is causing drama, your focus becomes on the drama, and it's natural for that to be the case.  Instead I desire for you to be able to always be emotionally detached from the drama, for the sake of your children.  The children will learn from your calmness and lack-of-reaction to your PDw's drama. 

I understand you may choose to depart your marriage, but I would caution you that leaving your 2 children with a PD, without your calm, stable trusting presence, is very hard on these minor children, whose adult rights are not yet fully granted.  I don't know where you reside in the world, so assuming that at age 18 your children will gain full adult legal rights. 

Mastering and deploying those 4 tools/rules listed above will allow you to not be involved in your wife's activities that create so much of the drama, but please understand that they also create an emotional environment between you two, of simply a roommate, not a spouse.  If you choose to be a spouse emotionally, she will probably drag you into the drama.  If you choose to be a calm roommate, it will be a a bit of a weird combo of mentally alone while another adult carries on in your home. 

Many of the stories you have shared are about her own activities and rants regarding them, in which you hear about.  But many do not actually include you, for example your story regarding the gym drama.  Think about a time when you may have had an actual roommate, and if that roommate had drama at the gym.  They may come home and rant about it, but you probably would not be emotionally involved, and the actions of your roommate would not concern you regarding your own reputation outside the home.  In my opinion, your spouses emotional behavior outside the home, should be of zero concern for you, unless it also involves your children, as your children are defenseless as minors and may need your emotional support.  But for example, I could care less what my wife does/says at the gym and if she came home and told me that drama, my roommate-response would be a MC "I'm sorry that happened to you today" and I would carry on with what I'm doing. Again, I know at this time, you feel trapped in the home, but many of us are/have been in similar situations, and I want to encourage you to enhance your efforts and practice of MC, noJADE, 51% rule, and the 50% rule (to keep you balanced in understanding).   You can do this and imo, need to do this. 

Lastly, you mentioned the word cycles, and indeed most PD's work through the IDD cycle over a period of time.  That cycle length may be short or long.  For example it may be a 1 month complete cycle or multiple years.  My PDfather cycles quickly and my PDwife cycles about every 2.5-3 years.  IDD (short acronym to remember) is Idealization (lovebombing), Devaluation (extremely and vocally critical) and lastly Discard (extreme silent treatment and other purposeful ignoring-you actions/reactions.  The purpose of the cycle is to keep the target off balance, keep the focus on the target (not the PD) and to keep you cycling, which perpetuates it's repetitiveness.  It is helpful for you to identify which part of the cycle you are on, so you will not get sucked into the actions/reactions the PD desires.  If you remain a  MC, noJADE roommate constantly, the PD's cycle becomes ineffective on you therefore ineffective FOR them as well.  It's actually very interesting to be able to understand and witness this occur, once you are able to effectively use the tools at all times. I encourage you to mentally think through past drama events and practice the toolbox responses/non-responses in your mind.  This mental practice helps you in real situations and sharpens your skills and timing in deploying them correctly.   Practice (mind scenarios and real event) sharpens the skills over time and eventually it will become 2nd nature to you. 

In encouragement always,

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

SofT,

Your post is the most concise and best explanation of using the tools that I have read on this forum.

Thank you

JustKeepTrying

[escapingman]

Thanks Son Of Thunder. I have been doing this for some time now, not always perfect but trying all those 4 tactics. I think my lack of engaging in her drama has thrown her cycles and at the moment they makes no sense and she can go from love bombing to devaluation back to love bombing in a couple of hours. I really struggle to keep up. The room mate thing is correct, that's what so try to do, but it is very difficult when she tries to force me to be affectionate towards her as its just turn my stomach, its always me that needs to give her affection but she ain't giving it back. I will try to write more on this topic but short of time right now.

Thanks for all replies. They help.

[escapingman]

Again, she reach a new low.... I think SG just have had enough of her abuse, and she is strong and standing up for herself. They ended up in an argument because SG tried to get away from washing her hair, my response was to talk SG into washing her hair and stayed calm whilst she had a tantrum. My wife decided it was such an insult on her that she stormed out the house and drove off, she has been away for an hour now. SG told me how wonderful this is as it is so peaceful, I think the same..... GC is trying to contact her behind my back, think I am more worried about her.

[escapingman]

This morning she kept her arguments from yesterday acting like a 2 year old. Demanding an apology from SG for yesterday, loudly walking around in the house moaning about she can't take more of the abuse (she really think she is the one who is abused). Then GC puts up a strop saying she don't want to wear the tie that goes with the school uniform, wife then says she doesn't need to wear it as she is top of the class and therefor can do as she wants. This is where I get seriously hacked off, what message is that sending to the child? Her mum says she can ignore the school regulations? I am not 100% agreeing with the school uniforms, but if there are rules they should be followed, they should certainly not be dismissed just because NPD mother tells her to. During this debacle she kept complaining about SG and at the same time praising GC pitting them against each other. I need to find out if I have any chance of getting full custody, I am really worried what she would do if she had them both for any length of time.

[ploughthrough2021]

I can't give you any legal advice as I am neither a lawyer or even have any experience in going through a divorce but can give you my two cents based on what I am going through.  I am in a similar situation.  My first reaction was full custody but when I thought about it harder, joint custody is fine because my stdbxw with uNPD is part of the kids life and they will decide for themselves whether to get involved or not with her in the future (I will only intervene if their wellbeing and safety is in line).  In my case, judging from her past behavior, I bet you joint custody will become de facto sole custody for me over time.  I wouldn't think about it too much if I were you.  Just concentrate on how to separate yourself (physically) from her so that you can think clearly.  Of course you need to make sure that your kids are OK.

[livinginmyhead]

I stayed with my UNPD until the bitter end because I didn't want him to turn the kids into NPDs or turn them against me.

When they were little they used to ask me why I made him mad all the time and beg me not to.

When they became teenagers they saw with their own eyes what was really going on.

All I had to do is remain calm and be the sane one(sometimes a major feat-haha)

He tried very hard to buy them off like he did his own daughter from a previous marriage but they were too smart to fall for it.

My kids are grown now and the oldest has moved out and is doing well.  UNPDH recently passed away but in spite of it all he did provide for me financially.  Maybe I will get a few years of peace with my children before I go.

It's a hard road, isn't it?

[escapingman]

I have always thought we would have the kids 50/50 but I am really worried now. She has really lost it lately, and she can't see it. SG would come with me if she had a choice,  I am not even sure she would want to see her mum as things are now. GC is a bit different but she is a happy girl when we are together without her mum (which rarely happens). I am not in a rush as I need to get this right, but I can't stay forever throwing my own life away.

[square]

You getting full or primary custody, as great as that would be, may indeed be difficult.

If 50-50 is the likely scenario, then imagine what you can offer. A peaceful home on your days. A break.

Will that be better than current?

[1footouttadefog]

I got demands/requests for affaction while my odh was at his worst.  I finally told him I was not feeling it and just could not be cuddly after I had been mistreated.  I offered that a sincere apology could help.

He marched off and has never asked again.  And I am talking about non sexual affection as he had quit with sex years earlier.  Strange man.

Roommate for many years and. Now legal guardian.  I am like legally a parental figure. I think I need a boyfriend, LOL.

[escapingman]

Since I started using all the techniques such as MC, GR, 50% and 51% it all just becomes so clear. She really follows a template, predictable actions and almost identical to all stories I read here.

On Saturday I left for an appointment, having done MC and GR which she thinks is me giving her the silent treatment, got a text where she is asking me to be civil to her and why I am not speaking to her after SG's outburst on Thursday. I replied calmly that she needs to look at herself and her own behavior and if she can change that I will do my best. Her reply was as expected, she has no clue what she has done and blames it all on the 11 year old child. Here is where she wants to get into a circular argument where I tell her everything she done wrong, she denies it all and turns it on to me and the kids, she NEVER do anything wrong. So when I came home she immediately confronted me wanting to know what she has done wrong (apparently shouting at an 11 year old who wanted help with something and then storming out the house leaving the children distressed for an hour is normal behavior), I refused and walked out in the garden with a beer. She follows me and keeps badgering me about what she possible can have done wrong, in the end she wipes it all out of her head and pretend its all good again and demands my affection and interest in her projects. As I am still disgusted with her behavior I still can't look at her without feeling my stomach turning, so she keeps pointing out why I can't look at her and instead of trying to be sorry and actually change a bit and be nice, she keeps pushing and pushing.

This follows up on Sunday, she started back chatting me under her breath (this is something I am struggling with as she is trying to paint me black to the kids) and I snapped and told her to stop. She immediately started screaming at me and in the end coming close to me pointing her fingers close to my face shouting "I am warning you, if you are not nice to me I will leave the house so you can't go on your trip you have booked next week". Yes, I have a couple of days away booked (to recover from her abuse) and every time I have something that would rely on her she will use it as a threat. So I replied to her "I am warning you, that if you leave then I will give you your divorce", I know not the most mature reply but I really have had enough. She then shouts at me how dare I warn her  ..... Then a long argument follows where she demands me to give her a cuddle and to look at her, I just couldn't, I am so past it, I feel my stomach turns when I look at her and all her evil nastiness.

When I cuddled SG when she went to bed and told her about me going away for a couple of days she went really sad and told me that she expects mum to be nasty to her when I am away. She then told me what happened at home during Saturday when I left for my appointment before my wife texted me. Apparently she threw her phone across the room, broke down crying on the floor because I was so mean to her and then she kicked off blaming it all on SG.

Is it really possible to be so blind for your own behavior and to be so self centered without knowing it? Or does she know it but just don't care? She is now talking about us going on a weekend trip without the kids and how she wants to move and start all over somewhere else. She even talks about having more kids even though we haven't even slept in the same bed for years.

[SonofThunder]

Escaping man,

The only encouragement I can provide, is for you to study and practice the toolbox.  MC and noJADE are very difficult to master but worth doing well.

Your last post has incidents where those two tools would have benefitted well to protect you.  The tools don't create change in the PD, but in the intensity and duration of the drama.  In addition, learning how to properly create boundaries to protect yourself (not try to dictate your PDw's actions/reactions) are necessary as well.  This is very challenging work, and all while in the the middle of turmoil.  Imo, if you are unwilling to master them and deploy them every/all the time, to protect yourself and create a more calm home for your children, then what you faced in your last post, will be your (and your kids) reality.   

You are not alone.  So many of us here are on the same path and some farther along and some behind as well.  We all though, are carrying the same toolbox.   Your last post contained JADEing and noMC, as your PDwife skillfully confronted you to JADE by asking you questions (bait). 

You wrote: (parentheses are my inserts)

"I  replied (JADE) calmly that she needs (you can only control yourself, than this is not a boundary on yourself) to look at herself and her own behavior and if she can change that I will do my best.  Her reply was as expected, she has no clue what she has done and blames it all on the 11 year old child. Here is where she wants to get into a circular argument where I tell her everything she done wrong (baiting you to JADE), she denies it all and turns it on to me and the kids, she NEVER do anything wrong." 

Then  you 'snapped' (your word for JADE) and told her to stop (not a boundary as you can only control yourself).  All of this is not MC=Medium chill as well.  So again, I refer you to the Out of the FOG toolbox you have in your possession.

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks for your reply SoT. I am doing OK with the toolbox but I do still fail, a couple of years ago I would have taken every bait but now I would say I am at least down to 1 out if 10. I still need to be better, but what if I can't?  She just had another discussion with me about how much she loves me and why I am so cold to her, again tried to explain I am struggling as long as she keeps rowing, complaining, back chatting etc and again she totally denies it telling me I am making it all up. She is so convincing I almost believe her, but I know all it is is her cycle. In a day, or two or maybe a week she will have another breakdown and I (or one if the kids) will be painted black and she will become the devil.

[Simon]

Thought I'd make a quick post.
There are many people here with a much more similar experience to you than I have, and are giving great advice, and I've just been following along.
But when I read this in your last post...

....again tried to explain I am struggling as long as she keeps rowing, complaining, back chatting etc and again she totally denies it telling me I am making it all up. She is so convincing I almost believe her....

...it occurred to me that maybe you should try ABR ( Always Be Recording).
If she denies doing these things, it's the next logical step.
It could be that she genuinely doesn't remember saying/doing these things (Borderline Amnesia), or she could simply be playing you by gaslighting you.

Either way, maybe it's time she heard herself.
I'm sure there would be fallout for the fact that you recorded her, but you could tell her that you had no choice because she wouldn't believe you, although rational reasoning like that probably wouldn't make any difference.

Just a thought.

[escapingman]

Thanks Simon, great advice. However, I have been recording her on and off for more than 6 months. I have got her shouting, physically hitting the kids,  threatening to murder me and all sh*t under the sun. I am not intending to use this fir her recovery but against her if needs must. I also use these recordings to remind me she is beyond help.