Breaking point

Started by escapingman, May 24, 2021, 09:37:29 AM

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ploughthrough2021

I have gone through what you re going through.  I chose not to record because she would have some ridiculous story and turn it around against me in any case.  I have just been focusing on how to get out ASAP !!!!  I am on to the next stage which is separating the finance first (which is not easy)

square

My take on recording is that it may be useful for:

- Documenting abuse for lawyer/court
- Helping you to not feel crazy by allowing you to check if something really did/didn't happen

I don't think it's useful AT ALL for trying to change a PD's behavior.

First: THEY DON'T. The problem simply isn't that they misremembered and if they could logically be shown proof they would realize. They are not playing by the rules of facts and logic. So no fact or logic will change them.

Second: They will see it AND USE IT as a huge betrayal to them. She is not going to stick to the subject of "this is what I did or didn't say." Oh no. The new subject will be HOW DARE YOU RECORD ME and it will go from there.

It sounds like you've come a long way with the tools. It takes time to master and even then we all slip up here and there. I do agree there is additional room for those tools in your interactions. Some ideas:

W: You're giving me the silent treatment.
Y: Sorry to hear you feel that way. (Tone is like she stubbed her toe and you're sorry to hear it).

W: Can you please be civil to me?
Y: Sure. (Tone is agreeable like you've been asked if you can help the kids to bed)

Also, I personally try to default to MC, which means I am pleasant though detached on some level. GR happens only when I am actively under fire. GR isn't a punishment but just a safety mechanism for me. You may need to GR all the time if you are constantly under fire. But just ask yourself if MC is possible sometimes. The reason I ask is that it will increase the friction to use GR against a borderline. ESPECIALLY if you are, deep down, trying to punish. So only bring it out when needed.

MC is like the pleasant way we treat people we don't know or trust. You can say good morning. You can offer to load the dishwasher. You can ask to pass the butter. You don't ask for anything unless we can take a no in stride, though. If the butter is refused just grab it, don't look angry, just no problem.

She may bitch less about ST with more MC if you can do it. But stop HOPING. You're answering her questions like you think she'll hear you and change. No. Give up. "What did I do?" "Oh, everything is fine, I'm just in a hurry for work." Because you give up.

Simon

Quote from: escapingman on June 14, 2021, 09:29:51 AM
Thanks Simon, great advice. However, I have been recording her on and off for more than 6 months. I have got her shouting, physically hitting the kids,  threatening to murder me and all sh*t under the sun. I am not intending to use this fir her recovery but against her if needs must. I also use these recordings to remind me she is beyond help.
Oh wow!
Fair enough.
That's quite a list of things.

You really do have a bad situation here don't you?
Sounds like you're on top of it though, getting everything ready.

I wish you luck mate.
:thumbup:

SonofThunder

#63
In my opinion, recording with the intention of playback to a PD is not only JADE, but if attempted to utilize in a divorce case, frowned upon or even potentially illegal if the other person is not aware recording was ongoing at the time.  That may depend on ones location and laws governing the use of recording devices and privacy laws. 

The reason I consider it JADE is:

1. Playing back a recording to make or prove a point and/or show fault is both A=argue and D=defend by showing fault in the other. 

2. PD's generally have no concept they are in the wrong, nor can they be convinced by another that they are in the wrong, and will use the accusation of wrongdoing, by recording,  to spin the fault to the non in another angle of circular and drama-escalated conversation, which is what No-JADE is designed to prevent. 

If PD's had the capability to see their own actions on playback and change for the better, then therapy would be effective for them, which it is not.  These individuals are mentally underdeveloped and further developing stopped at a certain age.   Protecting oneself and others in our circles of responsibility, as well as reducing the intensity and duration of the drama is the proper action, as the Out of the FOG toolbox teaches.   No-JADE, MC and proper boundaries, all governed/balanced by the 50% and 51% rule are very effective in protecting ourselves. 

Lastly, escapingman, what you just stated is JADE.  You wrote: (parentheses mine)

" I would say I am at least down to 1 out if 10. I still need to be better, but what if I can't?  She just had another discussion with me about how much she loves me and why I am so cold to her, again tried to explain (E=EXPLAIN) I am struggling (D=Defend) as long as she (A=ARGUE) keeps rowing, complaining, back chatting etc and again she totally denies it telling me I am making it all up."

Again, I direct you to the toolbox and mentally run back the past drama scenarios in your mind.  If your response to her is: justifying yourself, arguing in support of yourself or against her actions, defending yourself or explaining yourself, it's JADE.

If you are walking down the street of a town and a begger starts to badger you for your attention and money, do you justify, argue, defend or explain why you dont have the time to stop and give money or that it is annoying to visit town and be badgered and try to get him to understand it's annoying, or try to fix the homeless persons predicament?  Probably no.  You probably just totally ignore them or you say something MC to the person and keep walking.  If you have the willingness  to do that to a begger, you can learn to no-JADE your wife. 

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

escapingman

SoT. As I said, my reason for recording is mainly for myself to keep remembering what has actually happened. I would only use the recordings in a court if it turned ugly, and only if lawful.

SonofThunder

Quote from: escapingman on June 15, 2021, 06:06:45 AM
SoT. As I said, my reason for recording is mainly for myself to keep remembering what has actually happened. I would only use the recordings in a court if it turned ugly, and only if lawful.

Understood, but many others commented as well regarding recording, so simply inserting additional thoughts regarding. 

SoT

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

escapingman

I know SoT, just wanted to make it clear.

The cycle keeps going, even though I know I am still getting confused and my hopes up. I know I can follow her in her cycle and enjoy the short "normal" just for her to snap. Right now she is unsure and I think worried I would leave her, so right now she is trying to be good and for me to get back on track. It's so hard to keep her at arms length, but I know as soon as she thinks she got me back where she wants me she will kick off and abuse me. I wish I was strong enough to just walk and get this separation started, TBH the "golden periods" she is giving me are far from golden anymore, they are a bit of respite from the abuse and nothing more. I went away for an overnight stay on my own, for a bit of a rest, mostly from her but I obviously didn't say that, but boy does it feel good to be involved in incidents not going to plan but just shrug your shoulders and say whatever instead of worryingly looking at her and wonder how much will she kick off this time. I have managed to book another trip in a few weeks, considering if I should go or not but I really need every break from her I can get for my own sanity. I am not that happy leaving the kids with her, but as the old saying is you need to save yourself before you can save others.

Boat Babe

When "the good times" are only the absence of abuse ......
It gets better. It has to.

escapingman

She has lost it completely, it makes it easier for my to prepare for the separation. I think even the kids have seen it now, Golden Child has started complaining about her to stop behaving like a 2 year old. This morning she really went far down the steps and had a tantrum worse than most I seen. Kids have taken up a hobby they really enjoy, "unfortunately" it is one uNPDw hates, and it takes up quite alot of time. She wants all the timespent with her doing her hobbies and listen to her take on the world, if the kids spend time with me she takes it as they are against her and therefor painted black. This morning rant, I got it all recorded, she covered everything and she let her mask slip completely showing her true colors. She truly believes she does more for the family than me, despite her not having a job and not wanting one, every thing she does she put on her mental list and compare with what I do. I work (not imortant), she goes to the gym (important), She takes the kids to school (important), I pick them up from school (not important), She makes their school lunches (important), I make them their evening meal (not important), she cleans the house every day (important), I work (not important and this has already been cancelled out by her going to the gym), she wash the clothes, I work (I can't use this excuse as work only cancel out her gym), She does he puzzle book (important for her to wind down), I read the news on my phone (not important so should pay attention to her puzzlebook in case she needs help), She puts a grocery order in online (important), I go to the shop and pick up some food (unimportant as it should all have been on her order anyway, and I dare using the wrong supermarket), She watch tv (important recreation), I watch sport on tv (unimportant and a waste of time), She goes to bed early (that's important), I go to bed late (how dare I), She gets up early (that's important so she can follow her morning routine), I get up later (how dare I), the list is endless......

I am out.

ploughthrough2021

Hi escapingman,

When I went through the phase that you are going through now, I didn't know about this Forum and I had no medical insurance for therapy so it was rough.  My guts were turned inside out.... It took me a while to get Out of the FOG and am starting to control my life again. It feels good.  I think it's important that your kids understand the situation.  I waited until my youngest turned 13 to decide that I was getting out despite a lot of suffering...

My point is that you are just going through the motion and I see that you have actually been trying to make things work.  So you are just in my mind going through a path that many have gone through on this Forum.  I wish you courage...

escapingman

Thanks Ploughthrough2021, you posts in here are very valuable.

It's the crazy making, the hot and cold, the pure evil followed by complete lack of understanding of what just happened. She creates divides in the family, she pits the kids against each other, she demands me to back her unreasonable actions against minor offences. All weekend was washed away by this and she can only see her fake truth, it really helps to be Out of the FOG (or as far out of it I can be). It's disturbing to look at how an adult person can behave in such way, I have tried to live with it, tried to accept the bad with the good, but as there are no good anymore all I can see is a black evil demon that is breaking mine and the kids hearths. I just need to find the last bit of will power and to contact a family solicitor to talk through my options. A couple of months ago I could have just walked away from it all, but I am not going to do that, the one that should have to walk is her. 

escapingman

I am starting to get worried for real now and understand the need to get our quick. The golden child started shouting and swearing at me today, she justify it with that she wants me to suffer the same as her mother when she is being shouted at. The issue is of course, the pain uNPDw receives and let GC know is mostly manufactured. Yes, SG is doing a lot of shouting at her mother, but that is almost all the time following an abuse session by her mother. I think both kids (and me) needs therapy, but I have no idea how to move that forward and especially with a covert narc involved still.

ploughthrough2021

For all it's worth, we tried a family session (therapy).  It didn't go anywhere for us because the kids were reserved and my wife started to talk a bit louder to the kids which threw the young therapist off (I think she was a bit inexperienced).  For me, it is a bit easier as none of the 3 children are 'Golden'.  A family session may help you though because of the golden child.

Lookin 2 B Free

#73
EM, This is such a terrible situation and I really feel for you.  I've gone through it twice.  First time was with kids, long ago, after xH with NPD traits had split the kids into GC and SG and he and I had become unhappy roommates with no relationship.  But I had yet to see the full on PD thinking and behavior disorder until the last BPDNPDx. 

   Really?  He's incapable of rational thinking on any emotional issue (and what isn't emotional for someone with a small child's maturity).  He really, literally, is incapable of imagining what it's like to be in someone else's shoes?  He can't refrain from being abusive?  He can't make any good use of special therapy or even stick with it when the consequences of not doing so are so dire?  Really?  That's pretty hard to believe that he's utterly incapable of these and so many other baseline adult responses.

  For me, maybe not for anyone else . . . but for me, part of that was I didn't want to see.  So for a good long time I focused on what could be done to fix him and feeling outraged that he continued to act like a PD despite everyone's best efforts.  To accept the truth meant I had to consider leaving.  I didn't know why that was so hard, but it was.

   The next part of the process was when a shift started happening from me looking at what he was doing and why,  to beginning to look at what I wasn't doing (leaving) and why.  There really wasn't much to ponder about him.  A duck quacks.  A pwPD acts and thinks like a pwPD.  They're both very consistent and I am completely powerless to change that - as is he, I believe.

   That left me with "I know having a halfway decent, healthy relationship with him will never happen.  It is completely hopeless."  This was not an easy step for me to get to *at all,* and took some years.  But I never seriously considered leaving him until I got there.  That left me working with me, in therapy, until I hit bottom and left him.  It was supposed to be forever but it lasted a year.

    Something very terrible happened to him (not even his fault for once) and I ended up back with him to keep it from being fatal.  Not that I had to.  But i did.   He returned from the jaws of death and did his PD cycle, got abusive and vengeful, and i left.  It's been almost 2 1/2 yrs.  I went NC with him 1 1/2 yrs ago.  Then, and only then, did I start really discovering the issues I had which had made it so hard to leave.  I've been working in therapy on those. 

   All this to say, it was a real process going from the fog to actually separating or divorcing.  For me it was necessary to take my focus off of him and begin to look at me.  And it continues to be a process, but one that holds out hope and gets better by the weeks and months instead of worse.  I'm wishing for you that it won't take years and years more to become clear about what you need to do and able to carry through.  Good luck!

escapingman

Thanks Lookin 2 B Free.

I have started to disconnect and I am trying to concentrate on myself. I need to look at my health, eat better, drink less, exercise more, but all this has come second as I have always been running from putting out one fire after another. When it comes to the evening I am shattered, I either have to pander to her and do whatever to keep her happy, or else listen to her complaining all day for me not assisting her, I have realized the latter is better as she would complain anyway. But, she can literally stand in front of me shouting at me in my face telling me I am the worst human being in the world and that she can't wait to see me dead, then an hour later wonder why I am not sitting down eating lunch with her and subsequently blaming me for being in a bad mood.

I now you are right, I need to leave for my own sanity and to save my own life. I am nearly nearly there, or am I? Every time I am close I have a wobble and think, what if? I need to erase that last "what if".

ploughthrough2021

Yes, you have to exhaust the 'what ifs'.  It took me about 3 years...  Now I'm ready to call it a day...

escapingman

I know there is no chance, she just can't see. Yesterday she decided that she has again "forgotten" how she behaved over the weekend and kept coming to give me hugs (and expecting the same back), I just felt sick being touched by her. She kept telling me how much she loves me, I kept telling her if she really does she needs to stop the abuse, but her only answer to that is/was there is no abuse and it's all in my head - yeah right.... Then the kids came home from school, GC was excited about something and kept asking her to look at it, she got stressed and started shouting following by hitting GC over the arm. Her anger could only be stopped by GC apologizing (for something she didn't do). Then 5 minutes later she pretends again that everything is perfect, before she have another breakdown and this time with SG.... I really can't handle this roller coaster anymore.

Boat Babe

Dear escaping man. I notice that you are talking with us everyday, sharing stories of what your spouse is doing to you and the children. You tell us that nothing has changed and that you have had enough. However, I fear that you are stuck in that place and not moving forward. I don't see any plan on the horizon.

Please sit with yourself and try to identify what, exactly, is stopping you from making the next step.  Please do this.
It gets better. It has to.

Simon

#78
Quote from: escapingman on June 24, 2021, 04:02:02 AM
"forgotten" how she behaved over the weekend and kept coming to give me hugs (and expecting the same back), I just felt sick being touched by her.
My situation wasn't anywhere near as bad as yours but I did experience that exact behaviour.
After months of disgusting behaviour like coldness, devaluing, silent treatment, suspected cheating (at that time), lying, etc, as I was getting ready to leave for work, my BPD ex gf put her arms around my neck, kissed my passionately, and then said "I Love You".
The first bit of warmth for months, and all I could think was "Get the F off me!".
Couldn't stand her touch anymore.
I didn't say that of course.
I think I just said "See you later." or something similar.
I have no idea why she was suddenly so warm.
Could have been an external trigger (or lack of), or more than likely an internal trigger that had nothing to do with me at all.
When you don't know it's their pathology, their flip-flopping can seem so weird.

And I agree with Boat Babe.
If you know that there's no hope, and you know she has a PD, then you need to start making a plan.
It isn't going to sort itself out, she isn't going to get better, and as painful as it's going to be, it's still going to be better than staying.
And in the long run, you will get a normal life for you and your children.

I've said it before, but when we understand that our other half has a mental illness like BPD/NPD, then anything further that happens after that point is down to us.
We are accepting it, enabling it, and we can no longer blame the person with a Personality Disorder for what is happening.
We can only blame ourselves for letting it happen.
we are complicit.

Wishing you strength mate.

ploughthrough2021

I can understand why escapingman is not actively planning.  I was in that mode for a while.  When you have kids, it is quite difficult to just pack up and go...